Magic Speculation

SinnonSinnon Posts: 383 Seed
edited January 2014 in Lore & Theories
I asked myself, well... we got magic and we can controll it, but, how?, and why?, I am quite curious about this and will develop the post as I continue understanding more things about TUG's magic.

By now the only sure thing we know... is that magic is available while using tools and that certain specimens can controll it withouth a tool or any other kind of device. So I think this tells us something important, actuall magic is energy stored inside a Seed's body, but the seed itself has extremely poor controll and knowledge over it, that's why we can't use it.

Basically what I am trying to say is that magic is in our body, and that at some point we'll be able to use it withouth tools, there are several ways that magic can be interpretated, but since its a pure and raw power, that's why we see it as a water, spectral splash.
Sintiacutetulo-1-1.png
Enlist your faction in Seekers Order, sub-groups or alliances are not problem with the enlisting, since we are a not a clan, just a UN sistem of organization.

Comments

  • PsiQssPsiQss Posts: 181
    Funny. Not more than two weeks ago I was contemplating about the magic in general and I have kind of an universal idea of how (and why) magic works in most fantasy worlds. This thread seems like a perfect place to share my thoughts :)

    Darn it, why am I even thinking so much about magic? I almost never play as a mage, lol xD
    Anyway, expect a wall of text from me very soon, I'm too drunk to gather my thoughts right now and I don't really want to mess this up ^^"
    “You might want to think twice before you try to use a man's conscience against him. It may turn out he doesn't have one.”
  • Re EvolutionRe Evolution Posts: 1,105 Seed
    But your best ideas come when you're drunk. I've tested this.
    5.jpg
  • WingidonWingidon Posts: 1,128 Seed
    But your best ideas come when you're drunk. I've tested this.
    Or when taken by insanity c:
  • I've always liked the way magic was done in the Wheel of Time (which has the very best magic system I have ever seen in it).

    To explain it in detail would require you to know more about the cosmology in the books than I care to go into (people who have read them will know what I mean... it takes a good 5 books to get a solid understanding of the basics), but think of it like this: The universe is like fabric (a great pattern), with each thread in the fabric being a single thing in the universe, whether it be a person or a rock. The universe is spun out by the Wheel of Time (think of it as a weavers wheel) and The One Power (read magic/force) turns the Wheel. The One Power is a duality of male (Saidin) and female (Saidar), working together and against each other to turn the wheel. Channelers access this universal power to form "weaves", which consist of complex threads of five elements: Water, Earth, Fire, Air/Wind and Spirit, with different combinations and different weavings doing different things (So a fireball is a simple thread of fire, while healing involves all elements woven into a huge complex web). Females who channel Saidar are generally better with water and air, males who channel Saidin are generally better with earth and fire with spirit equal among both.

    I have no idea why I just went and explained all that, as none of that could really ever be implemented into a game, but hey why not.
    - Member of the Arcane Council, the Ruling body of Ars Arcanus.
  • PsiQssPsiQss Posts: 181
    Ok, so let's do some magic theory.

    The thing that made me thinking and contemplating about magic was its nature and how the spells work. I wanted to create a universal theory that could explain most of the magic systems in different fantasy worlds, as well as so called modern mages and religion (please don't burn me). The first question that was concerning me was, what are spells. In most magic systems, they are talking about discovering new spells, runes, magic words.. basically, very specific set of symbols that make the magic stuff happen. Why? Why saying a weird word creates a fire storm? Why does drawing a symbol on the sword make it unbelievably sharp? Does this mean that Magic is actually a conscious entity that only understands those symbols? How does discovering work? Is it like math? Well, that didn't make sense for me. Magic is much more than just a simple set of laws and instructions. And it's not conscious, that's for sure. So, why is it so complicated that we can't simply control the magic with our will? Why do we have to use symbols?

    Well first of all, let's explain what magic actually is. The universe consists of material realm and astral realm, both existing in the same time and space. The material realm is everything we can experience with our five senses, astral realm is everything we experience that is not material (Thoughts, consciousness, emotions.. and energy). Their molecular structure on the lowest level allows them to pass by each other without colliding (I can't find the proper english word for it, lol xD interfere? interlocate? Nah, I give up..). The structure of the material realm being 010101, while the astral is 101010. Kinda. Well, I hope you get the idea. Anyway, those two realms usually don't interact directly, and to make astral realm affect the material realm, you have to bend its molecular structure to make the particles collide. This creates astral distortions though, and can cause permanent damage or make some weird stuff happen (In most systems, using magic has some side effects). The nature made it so those realms don't collide usually. But right, the nature of magic.

    Let's go to the very beginning, what the magic was before anyone started messing with the Astral.
    The Primary Essence. Here my theory splits in two. Theory of Magical Evolution assumes that the raw magic was originally in pure form and then slowly began forming into basic elements (fire, water, light, air and earth). This happened either due to evolution or because of influence of the first creatures that were using magic.
    The Chaos Theory on the other hand assumes that raw magic was completely chaotic at first, then because of some powerful event pure magic essence got "destilled" from it, creating basic elements as a byproduct.
    Regardless of whether the first theory or the second theory is true, it is known that Chaos Magic and Pure Magic are both very powerful.

    Now, let's get into the spells and the usage of magic. The following idea was inspired by a huge post on one of the modern magic orders' site. I can't find it now though, so I'll write from memory. (Please post a link though if you know what I'm talking about)
    The very first mages (not necesserily humans) were using magic in its raw form, concentrating and shaping it with their own will. Their only limitations were their own imagination and willpower. There were very few of them though, and at some point those mages wanted to help the less powerful ones use magic too, so they've started creating spells for them. Through long meditation they've managed to separate their will from their own conscious thinking, making it an independent entity.

    Here we're getting into the area of thoughtforms, that are something similar to our own consciousness. There are four basic types of thoughtforms: unconscious dependent (used to manipulate raw magic), unconscious independent (most spells), conscious dependent (familiars and some lesser demons) and conscious independent (powerful entities) (There are also godforms but it's more of a sub-type and it's much more complicated). Human consciousness belongs to the last type, meaning that we can think on our own and are not dependant on any other entity. Conscious dependent type are most magical familiars and creatures that have their own will but can be destroyed by their creator any time. They also can't last longer than their creator. The first magical "spells" belong to the unconscious dependent type. They are thoughtforms that have a certain task and then they disappear from the astral realm. That's how magic worked at the very beginning - the mage focused on something, and then sent his will to the ether to do a certain thing. The unconscious independent type is what interests us the most right now. This is what the spells are - a set of instructions for the energy to do every time someone uses an activator word/symbol/gesture. They are imprinted on the astral realm, they are there forever or until erased by powerful magic.

    Those activators had to be complicated enough so no one used them by accident. Simple ones require just a certain gesture, word or symbol to be used, while more complicated ones require you to focus on something specific. So there are spells that anyone can use and there are spells for which you still need to have a strong will power.

    As you can expect, as more spells got created "true" mages began to disappear. Each generation had less and less of them, because magic become much more simple and that level of dedication to it was not required anymore. Discovering "new" spells simply means that mages are exploring the astral realm to find some anomalies, which are the spells that got forgotten but are still there. They analise those thoughtforms to learn how to activate them. Nowadays, there are very little people that are able to use raw magic. It's much easier to find an existing spell and modify it a little bit than it is to actually bend the astral reality yourself.

    And that's it :P I don't know much about the magic in TUG but so far, every magic system fits in this theory. There was a bit more I wanted to write but I can't remember what it was, so maybe I'll add stuff later.
    “You might want to think twice before you try to use a man's conscience against him. It may turn out he doesn't have one.”
  • erian_7erian_7 Posts: 195
    Threads and Patterns were/are a very big part of the magic system for the tabletop RPG called Earthdawn. Very flavroful system and setting. The Weave is also imagery used in the magic of the Forgotten Realms setting for D&D.
    Seek Justice, Love Mercy, Walk Humbly With Your God
  • WingidonWingidon Posts: 1,128 Seed
    Psiqss, I. Love. Your. Theory.
    Funny thing is that for now, pretty much everything in TUG can fit, it's a pizza base before the oven!
  • PsiQssPsiQss Posts: 181
    Thanks Wingidon, I'm glad someone likes it :) And that someone actually went through this wall of text, lol.
    “You might want to think twice before you try to use a man's conscience against him. It may turn out he doesn't have one.”
  • WingidonWingidon Posts: 1,128 Seed
    When I am lucky enought to find the moment to read a wall of text, I use it c:
  • SinnonSinnon Posts: 383 Seed
    PsiQss I had a very similar idea, and so I did elaborate it in a really simple chart, tho for some reason, this does not fully explains what I think of magic, I'll refine it in a near future and see if it agrees with the theories we have right know.
    Sintiacutetulo-1-1.png
    Enlist your faction in Seekers Order, sub-groups or alliances are not problem with the enlisting, since we are a not a clan, just a UN sistem of organization.
  • The ArcanianThe Arcanian Posts: 51 Seed
    Sorry to burst you bubble PsiQss. But I have a game I plan to make at some point and I don't think its magic fits into your theory, and I bet I have come across some others that don't as well.

    I think magic is more energy(s) that is reactive to the will of magic users, this can be easy or hard depending on the amount of magic in a world and a beings natural affinity for it. Spells and symbols are points of focus for when the amount of magic to be controlled exceeds the users normal level of concentration and/or the amount of magic required is not instantaneously available.

    I also really like Arthur C. Clarke's third law: "Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic" and its corollary's, like "Any sufficiently understood magic is indistinguishable from technology"
    Nerd? You say that like it's an insult.

    Please excuse any bad spelling...
  • PsiQssPsiQss Posts: 181
    I think magic is more energy(s) that is reactive to the will of magic users, this can be easy or hard depending on the amount of magic in a world and a beings natural affinity for it. Spells and symbols are points of focus for when the amount of magic to be controlled exceeds the users normal level of concentration and/or the amount of magic required is not instantaneously available.

    I think I have failed to find the spot where it doesn't fit :P I'd say It's more of a variation or maybe expansion for my theory. Maybe you should elaborate?
    “You might want to think twice before you try to use a man's conscience against him. It may turn out he doesn't have one.”
  • The ArcanianThe Arcanian Posts: 51 Seed
    PsiQss wrote:
    I think magic is more energy(s) that is reactive to the will of magic users, this can be easy or hard depending on the amount of magic in a world and a beings natural affinity for it. Spells and symbols are points of focus for when the amount of magic to be controlled exceeds the users normal level of concentration and/or the amount of magic required is not instantaneously available.

    I think I have failed to find the spot where it doesn't fit :P I'd say It's more of a variation or maybe expansion for my theory. Maybe you should elaborate?

    Some of this may just be semantics, one could equate an energy field(s) to another realm but I would not. Let my just use the magic from my game/world for clarity's sake.

    In my world, magic comes in 7 forms: the four classic(fire, water, earth, air), light, shadow, and life. They are completely independent but are controlled in the same way (you could say they are one but separate, but they never had an original "pure" form where they were one magic). People in my world can only control a magic if they have a talent for it, those without a talent for a type of magic are simply incapable of using it. Using magic in my world is usually just a matter of thought, only potent magic requires any form of incantation/symbol/circle/what-have-you as a point of focus. Magic in my world also has a physical drain associated with it (Whether this is from the mages generating the energy themselves or that the forcing of the magic to their will is a strain I have yet to decide) which puts a rather hard cap on what one mage can do.

    If you still think they are the same, say why and I will do my to explain why I don't think they are. The previous paragraph might not be very clear and if that is the case I apologize, I have a disorder of written expression so this is not my most conducive method of communication.
    Nerd? You say that like it's an insult.

    Please excuse any bad spelling...
  • DajeDaje Posts: 85
    In TUG though it's probably safe to say everyone will start out with around the same talent for magic.
    I personally don't like the idea of 7 forms of magic. I'd be happy to see water magic, but I think having forms of magic kinda limiting. I hope there's magic that people find difficult to label under any category. I feel as if this amplifies the mystery and complexity of magic. Even if one spell doesn't fall into a category, that exception to the rule might not prove the rule, but instead be the key to some entirely new understanding.

    I'm in for the lore.. especially magic lore
  • The ArcanianThe Arcanian Posts: 51 Seed
    Well I would be sad if TUG was like that, I want to see something different. That is also just what I came up with to start with, it might change. As for things that don't fit into the 7 types there was also combinations of the magics(any of the 7, or all of them)
    Nerd? You say that like it's an insult.

    Please excuse any bad spelling...
  • PsiQssPsiQss Posts: 181
    Some of this may just be semantics, one could equate an energy field(s) to another realm but I would not. Let my just use the magic from my game/world for clarity's sake.

    In my world, magic comes in 7 forms: the four classic(fire, water, earth, air), light, shadow, and life. They are completely independent but are controlled in the same way (you could say they are one but separate, but they never had an original "pure" form where they were one magic). People in my world can only control a magic if they have a talent for it, those without a talent for a type of magic are simply incapable of using it. Using magic in my world is usually just a matter of thought, only potent magic requires any form of incantation/symbol/circle/what-have-you as a point of focus. Magic in my world also has a physical drain associated with it (Whether this is from the mages generating the energy themselves or that the forcing of the magic to their will is a strain I have yet to decide) which puts a rather hard cap on what one mage can do.

    If you still think they are the same, say why and I will do my to explain why I don't think they are. The previous paragraph might not be very clear and if that is the case I apologize, I have a disorder of written expression so this is not my most conducive method of communication.


    Well, the whole purpose of my "theory" was to explain the magic in-depth in a way so that it fits most of the magic systems. The reason I even started thinking about it was the spells, runes and symbols and WHY they work. The lore behind how the magic was created and divided into elements was just and addition. Still, I didn't go too much into details because they can vary from system to system - things like restritions for using magic, personal affinities for a certain element or even incapability of using it. I skipped them on purpose.
    People in my world can only control a magic if they have a talent for it, those without a talent for a type of magic are simply incapable of using it.

    I think of it as a variation of my theory. And I can "bend" it a little bit to fit in. In my version, using magic was simply a matter of hard work but it is greatly affected by one's capabilities as well. Not to the point where someone becomes totally incapable of doing magic, but still. But the idea of interacting with "astral realm" can explain it better. Everything in the world consists of both astral and material form, which interact with one another in a non-direct way. That would be energy transfer. When a mage drains too much of his own energy, he is tired. If he uses more, it can even be physically represented.
    And the mage's energy (aura) can be of a certain type, let's say fire. That makes it relatively easy for him to use that type, but he has trouble (or is even incapable of) using water magic.
    Using magic in my world is usually just a matter of thought, only potent magic requires any form of incantation/symbol/circle/what-have-you as a point of focus.

    Kinda like my idea of using raw magic - simply with thoughts. But I don't think I understand your idea of incantations and symbols. Specifically, why does your magic respond to them (as mentioned before, that was the main thing bothering me when I've come up with my theory) and why is it attracted to certain symbols.

    Some of this may just be semantics, one could equate an energy field(s) to another realm but I would not.

    Yeah, I'd say it's just semantics. My idea of astral s just that it's just an invisible energy that exists everywhere. Some call it "realm", some call it energy fields, essence, mana..


    Well, if I were to place your world somewhere in my theory, it would be an era where initial usage of magic with thoughts was not yet forgotten, but people want to use more magic than they can themselves, so they are creating symbols and incantations as "focus points". If I understand you (which I have a feeling I'm not tbh) they work similar to my idea of them. And they could be created by several mages working together to bind the energy to a certain symbol, so it's easier to summon it for certain purpose later.
    Again, my theory is all about "why it works". The details of "how it works" can vary from system to system.
    “You might want to think twice before you try to use a man's conscience against him. It may turn out he doesn't have one.”
  • The ArcanianThe Arcanian Posts: 51 Seed
    Some of this may just be semantics, one could equate an energy field(s) to another realm but I would not. Let my just use the magic from my game/world for clarity's sake.

    In my world, magic comes in 7 forms: the four classic(fire, water, earth, air), light, shadow, and life. They are completely independent but are controlled in the same way (you could say they are one but separate, but they never had an original "pure" form where they were one magic). People in my world can only control a magic if they have a talent for it, those without a talent for a type of magic are simply incapable of using it. Using magic in my world is usually just a matter of thought, only potent magic requires any form of incantation/symbol/circle/what-have-you as a point of focus. Magic in my world also has a physical drain associated with it (Whether this is from the mages generating the energy themselves or that the forcing of the magic to their will is a strain I have yet to decide) which puts a rather hard cap on what one mage can do.

    If you still think they are the same, say why and I will do my to explain why I don't think they are. The previous paragraph might not be very clear and if that is the case I apologize, I have a disorder of written expression so this is not my most conducive method of communication.


    Well, the whole purpose of my "theory" was to explain the magic in-depth in a way so that it fits most of the magic systems. The reason I even started thinking about it was the spells, runes and symbols and WHY they work. The lore behind how the magic was created and divided into elements was just and addition. Still, I didn't go too much into details because they can vary from system to system - things like restritions for using magic, personal affinities for a certain element or even incapability of using it. I skipped them on purpose.

    Ya, I guess is is mostly the fluff that struck me as off, but being more of a science and systems person (that loves the concept of magic, ironic) it works better for me to think of it was a form of energy/force that we do not have in the real world.
    People in my world can only control a magic if they have a talent for it, those without a talent for a type of magic are simply incapable of using it.

    I think of it as a variation of my theory. And I can "bend" it a little bit to fit in. In my version, using magic was simply a matter of hard work but it is greatly affected by one's capabilities as well. Not to the point where someone becomes totally incapable of doing magic, but still. But the idea of interacting with "astral realm" can explain it better. Everything in the world consists of both astral and material form, which interact with one another in a non-direct way. That would be energy transfer. When a mage drains too much of his own energy, he is tired. If he uses more, it can even be physically represented.
    And the mage's energy (aura) can be of a certain type, let's say fire. That makes it relatively easy for him to use that type, but he has trouble (or is even incapable of) using water magic.

    In the real world there is little that someone is physically incapable of doing if they work hard enough at it, so I might change it so that every one can use magic at least at a very weak level (like they must use symbols and incantations for any magic they use, but then they can only do small things like light a candle without a lot of work).

    My thought is that if magic is a natural force like it is in my world those that have enough of a knack for it can do the simple stuff similarly to how we move our arms and push things. Just like some people are just naturally stronger then others and some are naturally faster, some magic user are just naturally better at using one form of magic then another.
    Using magic in my world is usually just a matter of thought, only potent magic requires any form of incantation/symbol/circle/what-have-you as a point of focus.

    Kinda like my idea of using raw magic - simply with thoughts. But I don't think I understand your idea of incantations and symbols. Specifically, why does your magic respond to them (as mentioned before, that was the main thing bothering me when I've come up with my theory) and why is it attracted to certain symbols.

    My idea for incantations and symbols was that they are a focus point for the will, like if you are trying to do anything the is difficult, like moving a heavy object, it is easier to do if you have something to focus on. So it is not the symbols and incantations themselves it is more that focusing on them makes it easier to do feats that take more magic.

    This also has to do with the amount of magic a world has, my world has a lot, but ones with less might require even the most talented people to use incantations or symbols just to to the fact of how diluted that magic is, kinda like air in so much that is is harder to breath when there is less air... just not so lethal with less magic.
    Some of this may just be semantics, one could equate an energy field(s) to another realm but I would not.

    Yeah, I'd say it's just semantics. My idea of astral s just that it's just an invisible energy that exists everywhere. Some call it "realm", some call it energy fields, essence, mana...

    Well, if I were to place your world somewhere in my theory, it would be an era where initial usage of magic with thoughts was not yet forgotten, but people want to use more magic than they can themselves, so they are creating symbols and incantations as "focus points". If I understand you (which I have a feeling I'm not tbh) they work similar to my idea of them. And they could be created by several mages working together to bind the energy to a certain symbol, so it's easier to summon it for certain purpose later.
    Again, my theory is all about "why it works". The details of "how it works" can vary from system to system.

    I see, I think I may have just taken a more "natural" approach. With magic being more a natural force that has always been there, and the people there developing with it just like we did with what we have. Magic therefor being just another tool that's use requires a head for it and instruction (if available).
    Nerd? You say that like it's an insult.

    Please excuse any bad spelling...
  • LastAtlanteanLastAtlantean Posts: 116 Seed
    I've always thought of magic as thus (but I LOVE the ideas storming around in this thread!):
    Magic is energy. Anyone who can 'use' magic is simply manipulating this energy, bending it to his or her will. If spell weaving were like building a building, magic itself would be the workers, and the words used like the blueprints. Stating your intent whist drawing upon the energy you have, then releasing it into the world is how magic users work their art. But a magic user must be careful not to over exceed their strength, because the energy to fuel a spell is drawn from their own body; over do it, and you die. The exception to this is when a magic user stores magic in objects for later use; i.e. gems or crystals and the like. Multiple magic users can join together and cast spells that are to great for a single person, but they must trust each other completely, because to cast a spell or draw strength from someone else makes you completely vulnerable to any magic, malicious or not, form that person/persons. The only limit to a persons magic would be the strength that they have and their vocabulary of the 'language' of magic.
    Just my thoughts. :-)
  • SinnonSinnon Posts: 383 Seed
    @Ziaf You should read this
    Sintiacutetulo-1-1.png
    Enlist your faction in Seekers Order, sub-groups or alliances are not problem with the enlisting, since we are a not a clan, just a UN sistem of organization.
  • ZiafZiaf Posts: 111 Seed
    I remember this thread, skimmed it once close to its creation but never did read the whole thing. I'll read it over. Was there something in particular you wanted me to read @Sinnon?
  • SinnonSinnon Posts: 383 Seed
    Psiqss theory was the most concrete writing I've ever read, its just that good! I hope that you will enjoy it @Ziaf
    Sintiacutetulo-1-1.png
    Enlist your faction in Seekers Order, sub-groups or alliances are not problem with the enlisting, since we are a not a clan, just a UN sistem of organization.
  • ZiafZiaf Posts: 111 Seed
    Yeah it's certainly interesting. I've always enjoyed magic systems across all the universes that they are present in, and detailed well thought out ones have always been my favorite. Speaking of one of my newer favorites are the systems created by Brandon Sanderson for his books. He tends to put a good amount of extra work into his systems to have them make sense within their universe with their own sets of rules.
Sign In or Register to comment.