Terrain modification in "adventure mode"?

inoino REGISTERED Posts: 131
edited March 2016 in Dev Corner
To be clear, we are not attempting to do away completely with terrain modification (digging/building) across the board, it would make little sense for us to leverage voxels if we had no intention of fully utilizing its capabilities. But, there may be a good reason for us to consider NOT allowing it in every situation.

What is currently being proposed, is allowing building with objects in survival sandbox environment, but not digging or building with voxels. We would still leverage voxel generation to get lots of beautiful terrain (caves, chasms, mountains, etc), but modification of this would not be permitted in this scenario. Materials could still be harvested in the environment, but in more "traditional" RPG methods, like harvesting nodes/objects.

Instead, voxel building and manipulation would happen in a separate environment, that is not connected to us officially, and is instead the "creative mode" sandbox. Allowing this to act as a sort of creation/modding/development environment, where people can build, and even script in real time with one another. Of course, people could share and upload content for others to experience.

All of this revolves around the cost real-time terrain modification has on performance, server caps, and supporting subsystems (such as AI and Physics). Making AI aware of the terrain modification would be expensive , and outright avoiding that awareness would render most AI, useless, companions, mobs, bosses, and NPCs alike. So expect things getting stuck in holes, running into walls, falling onto the floor and curled into a ball crying... crying, and not knowing what to do with itself.

And of course, the big catch here is, we are only talking about what is "official" content and experiences. Whatever you guys decide to take and mod, is entirely up to you. It can still be played offline, with all the things turned on, for just you, or you and a couple buddies handled locally on your machine, or server(s). You can do ALL the things, ALL THE THINGS until your machine explodes. Playing on your own, or with a couple of people locally, you are not subject to as many concerns for limitations.

Full transparency, I am personally very much in favor of this decision, but as always, we like to put things up for discussion to get feedback from you guys who are invested in what we are creating. I feel that the natural segmentation and focus on voxels in a creative environment, will make it easier on design and gameplay to tune the experience without too many unknowns. And also give a lot of value and focus for the team that is focussing on creation tools, allowing for map makers, modders, and developers, to make rad stuff that can later be fed into the vanilla experience of the game.

Terrain modification in "adventure mode"? 33 votes

Yea, this sounds great to me. Also, Ino, you are astoundingly good looking.
12% 4 votes
Yes, I agree, but your good looks are in question.
9% 3 votes
No, this is not acceptable, digging up my materials from voxels is important to my vanilla experience.
48% 16 votes
Not certain, need more information to really understand this.
27% 9 votes
IDK how I ended up here, someone said free cake.
3% 1 vote
I am a Dev on TUG, and I does teh science

Follow me on the twitters, why not? @inoritewtf
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Comments

  • folly06folly06 REGISTERED Posts: 4 Podling
    What ever you guys think best. Everything you've done/suggested so sar has been amazing. I personally love the idea and wish you all the best.
  • kokonuskokonus REGISTERED, Tester Posts: 16 Seed
    Im not certain about this but leaning strongly towards no.

    my thoughts:
    Its important that you can remove hills or fill up crevices in survival
    However if a server or map is made it would help if it could be turned off

    Still would like some more information as usual though.
  • PixelDragon13PixelDragon13 REGISTERED, Tester Posts: 114 Seed
    What @kokonus said. What about those Hobbit holes?!
    TUG Modder
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  • DekuDeku REGISTERED Posts: 1 Podling
    Honestly, I'm up for anything you guys do. However, I had a tough time processing all this with my brain meats. I think we as the community need a little more input to get a solid understanding before we jump to conclusions.
  • Hoppa_JoelHoppa_Joel REGISTERED Posts: 191 Seed
    Ino, I think I see what you are talking about, Kokonus makes a good point, and some land alterations might be necessary. Perhaps, 10% of a landblock could be alterable by non owners of the landblock.
    My guess, is players would own a lot.

    So here are my thoughts on what I think is being proposed, and perhaps this is what you are meaning;

    The "Player Lot" idea. Which would be sorta like a gold mining claim or something.
    Basically would be one landblock that the player owning it could control and add or remove people allowed to build/work their land. If a player becomes inactive for say a month, 5% of their property will gradually "return to the land" once that reaches 100% the plot no longer belongs to them.

    The ground block ( deed ) would work like this ( if you can code, it and this may be a massively pain to try ) but here goes:
    The server reads the owner, and basically locks down that plot to that player logging in. The plot itself, isn't stored on the server, but on the players computer. So when the player is offline, from the server the superficial part of the build is only visible, the land is not modifiable, people on the list to mod the land with the owner cannot interact, until the owner arrives. So basically the 'land owner' is really hosting their landblock on their own computer. If the computer of that person crashes/goes down, then any players would be ported just outside the land to avoid any limbo situations.
    When the player computer is disconnected, a building/cave/mine etc would be see-able, and explorable as normal but any z placed objects, any chests, would be missing until the plot owner returns.

    Areas outside the player owned lots would not be 'work-able' unless the server opted for this or it falls in the 10% bit of it.. SO no buildings, or things beyond an owned plot.
    Now we come to terrain reclamation. the 10% of each block, would remain, if it isn't land pocks. holes that continue straight down, etc etc.
    The server will read the modified land, read the original seed, and every day morph things slowly back.

    If it is a build block ( cobble wood plank thatch clay brick etc ) then the item deterioration would take longer.

    Now I am very much for harvestable nodes, for ore, for wood for food and so on, because I fully see how things as they are now can become massively laggy.

    Now the above is my speculation on what you have proposed.

    Or maybe you are thinking something on this line:

    Every player can create a small world. and I mean perfectly round in the sense you could walk from one side to the other. Landblocks limited to whatever number the player is comfortable with.
    This is hosted on their computer when they connect to the main server. the main server is a no mod option. Worlds could be traveled to, if you are on the players "good list" you can even modify their lands. The main world, the NK world hosted server, would be non interactive terrain, you could harvest etc, but only work on your own world. Your world would be set by your rules too, if you have mods running on it, people would get a pop up asking them to download etc. If the players had their own world, then the main server ( which also should be round /limited in landblocks ) would pretty much be free to explore, harvest, etc, and remain pretty lag free, as you'd only have connection/jump off points to other world, instead of actual building on the land on the server.

    I dunno, I am up for it, if we still can work together, on making cool builds and not have to feel we lost some freedom.



    Now these are my speculations on what I think could work, and I think this is where you are heading, and if it is, than I will vote yes, otherwise I'll retain my vote for later til I know more hehe :)

    (( hope this is coherent, as I have had a headache all day from work hehe ))
  • DapperHamsterDapperHamster REGISTERED Posts: 58 Seed
    Your interpretation is completely different than mine Hoppa_Joel, and now I really don't know exactly what Ino means; clarification would definitely be appreciated.

    I was seeing it as two separate game modes; adventure mode, where you cannot modify terrain but you will be able to craft perhaps objects like walls and such, and then build with them (perhaps like vine fences currently or something completely different). And "creative mode" (still not quite sure what "not connected to us officially" will mean), which will be oriented around creating huge structures/worlds, working on mods/development etc.

    With that interpretation my gut is reaction is no, but it depends on how much freedom there is with the objects in adventure mode. My interest in TUG is preciously because it combines survival/adventure/rpg elements with being able to interact with a sandbox environment and build what you want (not limited by cookie-cutter walls etc; the larger your building blocks the less diversity you can create with them).
    I want to be challenged by the adventure/rpg/survival aspects while I'm building, I want to go off and explore and enjoy those aspects and gather materials for my home and come back and build some more, I want to find and found communities, and maybe focus on a profession, and raise companions, and all the wonderful things we've talked about for TUG; I love the aspects of immersion and realism that have been talked about throughout the game and that have already gone into the crafting system, and to me being able to build and interact freely with the environment is a large part of that immersion.

    So for me "adventure mode" or "creative mode" doesn't cut it; I love the union of the two. I don't know if that's true for anyone else.

    HOWEVER, a big part of that immersion and adventure/rpg/survival elements is realistic AI. So that's a hard trade off :/ I want both >.> But I realize that may not be feasible. I'd have to have a better idea of what the building would be like in this adventure mode before I could really make a judgement call, if it comes down to one or the other.
    (assuming my interpretation is even correct)
  • RawrRawr REGISTERED, Tester Posts: 510 Seed
    Ok, first of all I agree that not every situation needs terrain modification BUT I'm a no by which I think the default should be leave it on.

    As far as information on the subject, I'd like insight into the following topics and how the teams currently thinking about it.

    First topic, the domain. I'm not %100 sure but I think Hoppa was raising the idea of creating a spherical terrain space, nice but the main element I'd draw out from that is how much would restricting and/or shaping the terrain domain/space effect our ability to ... scalably modify terrain.
    As an additional idea, you could leave terrain as it is but at a certain boundary value render an engulfing white cloud that if walked into kills the player and returns then to the main menu.
    note: I say scalably because the issue is worrying about the number of updates/checks on voxels we could do as the number of players increases.

    Next, voxel modification. Of course we'll need the two main things down to the T. Look-ups and updates. My questions on this topic is where do you currently see the issue residing? Is it that the current/proposed algorithm deals with one of them well but lacks efficiency in the other OR is it the then even worse case that the algorithm cannot scale/perform well enough with both look-ups and updates?

    And then there's distributed computing. So like, allocating servers particular tasks ... OR making every clients computer a server of sorts and distributing workload that way. I'm sorry, total pipe dream on the latter. You'd need to run some serious checks and synchronization would be Chaos/a nightmare... I think.

    Lastly time. The case is always that you want to do all the things but the reality is that you've only got time for one :( so then my question becomes after shifting priorities, at what point would they shift back again?
    Programmer, designer, artist.
  • CharlockCharlock REGISTERED, Tester Posts: 293 Seed
    I hesitated between choice 2 and choice 4 (our shared love of beardsmanship not withstanding).

    On one hand, the root of my love for this game lies solidly with "Survival" in every sense of the word. I like to stalk, hunt, harvest and craft. Now, these aspects include many things, even terrain modification to provide myself with shelter and protection. That said, I don't think terrain modification is 100% necessary for me to acquire these things. For example, I've built lean-to's, tents and assorted other bivouacs WITHOUT cutting into the dirt and rock.

    At the same time, it is hard to think of a multiplayer TUG where I can't wander the world and see the builds created by my fellow players who adore the ability to alter the environment in this way. I think a large part of age and technology progression is embedded in creating the home you want, as you evolve from the shelter you need. What would take the place of this ability? Would NK propose craftable materials that can be used to build larger, more advanced structures, instead of digging up 40 stacks of 512 cobblestone to create a fortress?

    Another aspect of the game that the removal of terrain modification from a survival-style game mode would be the loss of traps. As a survival player, this would be a major drawback. I really like the spike pit and pumpkin bomb traps, not to mention the plethora of undeveloped trap ideas I and, I'm sure, many others could come up with. Has consideration been given to this potential affect as well?

    These are just a couple of my immediate thoughts. I am wholly undecided and I would love more information. While this decision could potentially set a divide in the thoughts of many players, as always I am open for discussion. The only idea I would be adamantly against would be the removal of the "Survival" mode from the game. If the addition of an "Adventure" mode means the sacrifice of MORE than just terrain modification, you can count my vote in the "no, thanks" category.
    "I’ve been drunk for about a week now, and I thought it might sober me up to sit in a library."
  • Hoppa_JoelHoppa_Joel REGISTERED Posts: 191 Seed
    Rawr said:

    making every clients computer a server of sorts and distributing workload that way. I'm sorry, total pipe dream on the latter. You'd need to run some serious checks and synchronization would be Chaos/a nightmare... I think.

    Yes and No, if the World remains flat, then yes, because every landblock will need to show/update etc, and the world would be an ever expanding lag fest, due to the constant need to update and so on.

    This leads me to think one major "round world" of resources, and many tiny worlds ( personal servers ) We would build in/on/mod and could connect to via the main world in some method or other.
    Whether it be portal magic, or air-ships, this probably would be the best method.

    As for a round world it should work easily enough, in landblock generation, consider a pie, sliced 8 ways, that would give your landblock basics of course 8 landblocks ( which would be a pie, quartered ) would be as small as you could go logically. And that could pretty much be 8 biomes represented too.
    I would guess the main world would be 96 or 128 or something like that.
    If the main world is not terrain modifiable, but you are using resource noes in caves and the like, then the sphere code wont have to be as hectic to worry about.
    Personal worlds, 8 (small ) 16 (medium ) 24 (large ) would be as big as I think they should be allowed, these would basically be your personal world/server where you can set yourself and individuals to survival or creative, otherwise any default wanderer into your world would default to adventure mode meaning they couldn't effect changes etc etc.

    So basically, your main world, the world hosted by NK, would be a Static world, with well designed areas, NPCs, Animals, resource nodes, places to go to visit, and socialize, a MMO world. Each seedling world, could be entered by putting in the Seedling's name at say a portal menu then you'd appear at the portal on the other side. That would mean most everyone would enter into an area at the same point, so a menu would pop up to allow you to choose where to go. So whether it is a valley or a separate world, You'd still connect via a archway into a valley a world portal, or a building or cavern or something with a transition.

    Just more speculation on how it could work.

    If we are heading in an MMO direction, then there are options that can be done too like the mini worlds, or even just a transition portal, that would put us into our "Land Lots" Generating huge mountains as a un-passable border on all sides, and having the middle bits being generated by the seed we put in.
    While worlds or valleys probably would be best handled using the player's computer as a server, it does not have to be this way. This Would not necessarily need to be hosted on player server for this to work as it could be handled separately as a unit on a server bank. But if it isn't hosted on the players computer, then you also would not be able to work your world offline too. I think it would be nice if you could do that.


  • Jakeman6299Jakeman6299 REGISTERED Posts: 84 Seed
    edited March 2016
    Only if this "adventure mode" you're talking about is different than survival mode. Digging up voxels is important to survival. It's part of the experience. That being said, I do like the idea of building things with items instead of voxels.
  • inoino REGISTERED Posts: 131
    Yea, I think I maybe got a bit too in-depth on this one. And really, it may be a matter of us experimenting and testing one vs the other. Just the same, there is a lot of intelligent feedback here, and I always feel at ease here at home (as opposed to steam forums *shivers*).

    We work on fairly sophisticated tech, but its all about keeping it simple, and working our way as we have more data to support thoughts and ideas in practice.

    To be clear, building with objects does not need to be cut and paste. We have brilliant artists and engineers that are capable of amazing things, and we can create a lot of great alterations to structure. Actually, it may also be really easy for modders/artists to make visual variations of those sort of "prefab" walls. They by no means have to be uniform... think Legos, in a classic sense, not just blocks, but other shapes as well.

    Also, traps are still very much doable, even without digging... LOTS of things can still be accomplished with effects, and objects.

    As for "not official" with creative mode, that is to say that we wont have stats, achievements, data, tracked against it, or any form of real progression, since it would be a big creative building and experimentation environment.

    And really, its not to say it would not be "OMFG SO RAD" if we do all the things, but we are gonna have to make the call to what is more important... and to me, personally, id rather be able to play on a server with more of you, with way better AI, than I would with just a few of you, with AI running into walls, so I can dig holes. This is my take on it... clearly biased.

    What is more, we also recruited, possibly, one of the most brilliant minds in AI from Canada, one Carle Corte. The team has been working on some REALLY REALLY rad stuff that AI can do, and that modders can do with it. It would be a shame to see that squandered in vanilla. Just the same, we always talked about doing our own mods, so we could just spin it to another project later.
    I am a Dev on TUG, and I does teh science

    Follow me on the twitters, why not? @inoritewtf
  • inoino REGISTERED Posts: 131
    OH, and @Rawr , distributed computing is something that is on our dev path, but not for some time. We are looking at what can be accomplished now, with our team size in mind.
    I am a Dev on TUG, and I does teh science

    Follow me on the twitters, why not? @inoritewtf
  • CharlockCharlock REGISTERED, Tester Posts: 293 Seed
    Ino said:

    Yea, I think I maybe got a bit too in-depth on this one. And really, it may be a matter of us experimenting and testing one vs the other. Just the same, there is a lot of intelligent feedback here, and I always feel at ease here at home (as opposed to steam forums *shivers*)

    I couldn't possibly agree more with that statement. All of it.

    I'm completely confident in your team's abilities to overcome obstacles and introduce new methods and ideas for accomplishing the same or, at least, very similar tasks. If you say that removing or modifying the way terrain modification is handled in Survival will not take away from the experience, then I am inclined to lean toward your opinion.

    I'll miss seeing the massive @DooyDan builds in Survival, but using materials like leaves and sticks for primitive shelters is totally down my alley and I don't think anyone I've had the pleasure of playing the game with wouldn't be up for a new challenge.
    "I’ve been drunk for about a week now, and I thought it might sober me up to sit in a library."
  • Jakeman6299Jakeman6299 REGISTERED Posts: 84 Seed
    edited March 2016
    "I'll miss seeing the massive @DooyDan builds in Survival, but using materials like leaves and sticks for primitive shelters is totally down my alley and I don't think anyone I've had the pleasure of playing the game with wouldn't be up for a new challenge."

    I couldn't aggre more. I would love it if we could build stuff with items instead of voxels. The voxel builds are a little unpolished and would be more suited for terrain manipulation than for houses, towers, castle, dungeons, etc.

    Here's an example of what I mean


  • ShadowWeezleShadowWeezle REGISTERED Posts: 1 Podling
    Ino said:

    To be clear, we are not attempting to do away completely with terrain modification (digging/building) across the board, it would make little sense for us to leverage voxels if we had no intention of fully utilizing its capabilities. But, there may be a good reason for us to consider NOT allowing it in every situation.

    What is currently being proposed, is allowing building with objects in survival sandbox environment, but not digging or building with voxels. We would still leverage voxel generation to get lots of beautiful terrain (caves, chasms, mountains, etc), but modification of this would not be permitted in this scenario. Materials could still be harvested in the environment, but in more "traditional" RPG methods, like harvesting nodes/objects.

    Instead, voxel building and manipulation would happen in a separate environment, that is not connected to us officially, and is instead the "creative mode" sandbox. Allowing this to act as a sort of creation/modding/development environment, where people can build, and even script in real time with one another. Of course, people could share and upload content for others to experience.

    All of this revolves around the cost real-time terrain modification has on performance, server caps, and supporting subsystems (such as AI and Physics). Making AI aware of the terrain modification would be expensive , and outright avoiding that awareness would render most AI, useless, companions, mobs, bosses, and NPCs alike. So expect things getting stuck in holes, running into walls, falling onto the floor and curled into a ball crying... crying, and not knowing what to do with itself.

    And of course, the big catch here is, we are only talking about what is "official" content and experiences. Whatever you guys decide to take and mod, is entirely up to you. It can still be played offline, with all the things turned on, for just you, or you and a couple buddies handled locally on your machine, or server(s). You can do ALL the things, ALL THE THINGS until your machine explodes. Playing on your own, or with a couple of people locally, you are not subject to as many concerns for limitations.

    Full transparency, I am personally very much in favor of this decision, but as always, we like to put things up for discussion to get feedback from you guys who are invested in what we are creating. I feel that the natural segmentation and focus on voxels in a creative environment, will make it easier on design and gameplay to tune the experience without too many unknowns. And also give a lot of value and focus for the team that is focussing on creation tools, allowing for map makers, modders, and developers, to make rad stuff that can later be fed into the vanilla experience of the game.

    I seriously hope this isnt the route you take, its one of the main reasons i love these games, to literally and physically change the world
  • CharlockCharlock REGISTERED, Tester Posts: 293 Seed

    I seriously hope this isnt the route you take, its one of the main reasons i love these games, to literally and physically change the world

    Even if there's another game mode, or multiple other game modes that allow for player manipulation of the terrain? Seems a little silly to rule everything out because of an idea for a single possible mode, or set of servers that may or may not host this hypothetical type of world.

    We've really got to get past this "all or nothing" mindset. That's not what type of game this is, at least not from my perspective.
    "I’ve been drunk for about a week now, and I thought it might sober me up to sit in a library."
  • Hoppa_JoelHoppa_Joel REGISTERED Posts: 191 Seed

    "I'll miss seeing the massive @DooyDan builds in Survival, but using materials like leaves and sticks for primitive shelters is totally down my alley and I don't think anyone I've had the pleasure of playing the game with wouldn't be up for a new challenge."

    I couldn't aggre more. I would love it if we could build stuff with items instead of voxels. The voxel builds are a little unpolished and would be more suited for terrain manipulation than for houses, towers, castle, dungeons, etc.

    Here's an example of what I mean


    Wow Jake, that is amazing!
    Dan and I were carving a dungeon in the previous version of the datamine server, it looked no where close to impresive as that
  • RawrRawr REGISTERED, Tester Posts: 510 Seed
    @Ino Ahhh the feels.
    Haha and the name drop, ooooooooooh!
    Yea but really I don't know the AI world so I don't know names to be aware of. Still, I'm gonna go with awesome :)

    And thank you @Jakeman6299 for reminding me of that work @Sigil did (see all about those name drops now, @Ino this is your fault). It's a great proof of concept of using objects to build / generate. Mucking around with it until it gets to a logo-esk solution would be something I think helps/improves all possible scenario's moving forward.

    I will still very much miss digging secret tunnels underneath/around other peoples bases hehehe
    Omgosh and if anyone remembers my spawn hole trap..... sorry... not sorry :chuffed:
    Never the less, allowing players such as myself to experience digging up terrain again without too much hassle will be a good plus in the mean time.
    Programmer, designer, artist.
  • DapperHamsterDapperHamster REGISTERED Posts: 58 Seed
    I've been convinced by all the things; cool and varied prefab walls/building objects sounds like it can and will be done well and allow for lots of creativity still, and awesome AI is definitely super important (goats running into hills for forever and my cat getting stuck in every ditch makes me sad :/ ). Not to mention less server crashes.

    Let's try it! I switch my vote from "uncertain-need more info" to "yes, and Ino has a lovely beard".
  • onealoneonealone REGISTERED Posts: 3 Podling
    If I am understanding this correctly, I am curious as to why both can't be present in the same mode. Other voxel based games I have played have had both the ability to modify terrain and the ability to use premades in the game itself.
  • NorthwindNorthwind REGISTERED Posts: 20 Seed
    edited March 2016
    let us build structures in a voxel world editor "creative mode" thing and then import them into the our world. You could have pre-made walls and stuff that you could buy with the mats you get from nodes but the player needs to easily be able customize his own structures and easily insert them into the game. You gotta make it simple so ppl can create rather than relying on what others decide to make for you. The benefit of voxel manipulation is that it is simple and anyone that has ever played with LEGO understand how it works. If is to hefty of a system to have in a adventure world that it is understandable. but please don't give the ability to create and customize structures to only modders. There are millions of gamers out there that wanna create but don't have the time to learn to mod. So give us a simple, voxel based "creative mode" tool so we can make the walls, roofs, floors, hallways, towers, etc... the way want, save it, and then build it in our adventure world with the materials we farm from nodes. If you can pull this off the game will be legendary, bad ass, and separate it from from all other survival games. I believe in you, don't let modders decide you destiny and go down in history.
  • RawrRawr REGISTERED, Tester Posts: 510 Seed
    onealone said:

    If I am understanding this correctly, I am curious as to why both can't be present in the same mode. Other voxel based games I have played have had both the ability to modify terrain and the ability to use premades in the game itself.

    Cool. Which ones? From how I've understood the discussion so far it's more a matter of prioritization than removing voxel manipulation entirely.
    Programmer, designer, artist.
  • onealoneonealone REGISTERED Posts: 3 Podling
    If I am understanding this correctly, I am curious as to why both can't be present in the same mode. Other voxel based games I have played have had both the ability to modify terrain and the ability to use premades in the game itself.
    Rawr said:

    onealone said:

    If I am understanding this correctly, I am curious as to why both can't be present in the same mode. Other voxel based games I have played have had both the ability to modify terrain and the ability to use premades in the game itself.

    Cool. Which ones? From how I've understood the discussion so far it's more a matter of prioritization than removing voxel manipulation entirely.
    Landmark, for one. Rising World is doing something of the same thing. The first went with a store/shop based approach so that players could sell their own designs and such. Rising World simply has you craft them.

    But again, I am assuming I understand what's being proposed.
  • onealoneonealone REGISTERED Posts: 3 Podling
    As an aside, I am all for premades, I just really, really bought this game so I could have a beautiful, mysterious world to explore, build, and grow in.

    It's one of the things that has kept me from playing ARK more. ARK is fun, but ARK is all about crafting premades and slapping them in where you can fit them. If ARK were voxel based as well...well I'd be playing it a lot more often.

    And I wouldn't be playing 7D2D if it didn't have voxel manipulation along with survival elements (body temp, hunger, thirst, etc.), because I'm really not a zombie fan anymore tbh. If I had the creative knowledge-talents and software I would reskin all the zeds as bandits or survivors or some combination thereof.
  • RawrRawr REGISTERED, Tester Posts: 510 Seed
    edited March 2016
    Probably the best understanding of this topic can be extrapolated from this quote:
    Ino said:

    And really, it may be a matter of us experimenting and testing one vs the other.

    To bring this inline with my understanding I'd phase it like so:
    Both can still be present but not within a scaled multiplayer environment... yet. Creating an "adventure mode" where voxel manipulation is not present affords the developers a lesser amount of immediate problems and an instantaneous increase in capacity for other features (AI being the big one). For someone like me, who still wants to muck around with voxel manipulation, that game mode will remain however that mode's multiplayer capabilities won't be able to handle the same number of players. We'll see how things go in the next 1-2 years of development.

    edit: Words, it was late.
    Programmer, designer, artist.
  • CharlockCharlock REGISTERED, Tester Posts: 293 Seed
    Nothing is saying there can't be additional game modes, either. Right?

    Why not have multiple servers, hosting multiple game modes? Maybe NK can host one of each. Multiple modes also opens up a great deal of variety with privately hosted servers. In my opinion, "Survival" should be the mode that does away with terrain manipulation. At least from the perspective of being able to create huge fortresses from cobblestone, etc.

    I enjoy "Survival" for the what defines the name. If players are being innovative with in-game objects to start (like a leaf and stick lean-to for shelter), but have the opportunity to "grow" into pre-made walls, doors, etc. I think that makes existing in the world a little more strenuous and that's exactly how it should be in a game mode with that name. I would also submit that in a survival mode, the AI should be at the top of its game, in order to present the utmost challenge to those in that world.

    Keep Creative for those who just really enjoying putting together those epic creations and maybe Adventure Mode can be something entirely new and groundbreaking.
    "I’ve been drunk for about a week now, and I thought it might sober me up to sit in a library."
  • Hoppa_JoelHoppa_Joel REGISTERED Posts: 191 Seed
    I think the major issue with a creative server would be the "grief player"
    We already have people that steal objects, damage homes, and cut millions of tiny holes into the grounds to trap goats/cats etc. This is currently based on maybe 10 to 20 people that have been on the data-mining server, which I'd consider low grief-play.
    Ramp that up to LOTRO or WoW numbers, and we are looking at constant death pits at the drop or someone deciding they will dig every block of the entire server.

    A Creative server hosted by NK would need very strict guidelines, "or" if it is creative only in your personal playground world which could connect to any survival server/folks could visit you /.

    Additionally, If there is ever an option for creative in a survival world there would have to be strict guidelines and/or something that prevents the random griefer from loading a free copy grief playing until his account is banned and then starting all over again.
    Gating creativity behind an account unlock fee might serve to lessen it some what, and also a EULA that states if the player is caught engaging in destructive grief play continually, then they will get their account banned. Spending money then getting banned isn't common griefer practice so, that could lessen it.

    I think though, the best option would be a NK Overworld, where we connect to via portals. the Overworld is Survival/Adventure mode where you can only harvest via nodes and craft non structures and live in world like that. But your connection portal/or/transition into a valley or what have you, would be your building world, your creative world your modded world etc. Which could be set as private or public, and worked on both online or offline as you'd be uploading your area each connection to nk server, ( that would be optional as some folks might wanna just remain survival only )

    Just some thoughts.
    But, there will need to be some elements involved to stop grief play, gold farmers, and other undesirable elements MMOs have.
  • inoino REGISTERED Posts: 131
    onealone said:

    If I am understanding this correctly, I am curious as to why both can't be present in the same mode. Other voxel based games I have played have had both the ability to modify terrain and the ability to use premades in the game itself.

    The reason comes down to performance, as a whole. When looking at something like AI, for instance, its an entity that is constantly checking everything around it. Which means it checks against data in other "things". Now, that data CAN exist within voxels, but its SUPER costly, since it has to apply to ALL the voxels, not just the one wall that was created, or that hole that was dug up. This leads to AI that is basically running blind. This also has an impact on player caps, and a few other bits. Voxel modification, as a whole, is fairly costly.

    Its not that it cannot be done, its that it severely limits other cool bits too. So instead, we would say "hey, lets look at voxels as a rad building or creative tool, which people can still play in on their own machines and invite a few friends". And the "adventure type modes", we can have more "alive" worlds with more people, and have more "interesting" interactions between them.
    I am a Dev on TUG, and I does teh science

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  • inoino REGISTERED Posts: 131
    Northwind said:

    let us build structures in a voxel world editor "creative mode" thing and then import them into the our world. You could have pre-made walls and stuff that you could buy with the mats you get from nodes but the player needs to easily be able customize his own structures and easily insert them into the game. You gotta make it simple so ppl can create rather than relying on what others decide to make for you. The benefit of voxel manipulation is that it is simple and anyone that has ever played with LEGO understand how it works. If is to hefty of a system to have in a adventure world that it is understandable. but please don't give the ability to create and customize structures to only modders. There are millions of gamers out there that wanna create but don't have the time to learn to mod. So give us a simple, voxel based "creative mode" tool so we can make the walls, roofs, floors, hallways, towers, etc... the way want, save it, and then build it in our adventure world with the materials we farm from nodes. If you can pull this off the game will be legendary, bad ass, and separate it from from all other survival games. I believe in you, don't let modders decide you destiny and go down in history.

    Yes, @Northwind this is exactly the thinking. Leverage voxels as a way to create a sort of real world virtual collaborative environment, where people can build and share the things they create. Make maps for adventures, PVP, puzzles, platforming, etc.
    I am a Dev on TUG, and I does teh science

    Follow me on the twitters, why not? @inoritewtf
  • inoino REGISTERED Posts: 131
    Rawr said:

    Probably the best understanding of this topic can be extrapolated from this quote:

    Ino said:

    And really, it may be a matter of us experimenting and testing one vs the other.

    To bring this inline with my understanding I'd phase it like so:
    Both can still be present but not within a scaled multiplayer environment... yet. Creating an "adventure mode" where voxel manipulation is not present affords the developers a lesser amount of immediate problems and an instantaneous increase in capacity in others. For someone like me, who still wants to muck around with voxel manipulation, that game mode will remain however the multiplayer aspect won't be capable of scaling to the same degree - at least within the next 1-2 year future.
    I think this is close enough to be a fair statement.
    I am a Dev on TUG, and I does teh science

    Follow me on the twitters, why not? @inoritewtf
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