Supply and Demand

FreemanFreeman REGISTERED Posts: 141
edited December 2013 in Science!
So the dev team is gonna be watching our every move like some delightfully sinister being in a George Orwell novel. It makes me wonder...

Since the TUG community will eventually decide what is valuable and what is not, will the dev team use the statistics to alter the ratio of the valuable items? Like say we all decided that diamonds were the best resource to hoard, would you guy lower the amount of diamonds hidden away to make it even more valuable? Eventually causing us to turn to some other resource? Vice versa?

Or in a less aggravating sounding example: Say we decided gold would be the most valuable thing. Would the devs use this knowledge to give gold more uses? Like say give us the ability to turn gold ore into coins? Or use it as decoration on our weapons maybe?

Sorry if this is in the wrong section. It just looked so lonely up in this joint and I wanted to put something in it.

Comments

  • LeifLeif REGISTERED Posts: 361 Seed
    Well I wouldn't put it past Ino at all :lol:

    Resource distribution is one thing, but I think it would be pretty devious if they started changing things like the uses of the items. How will we be able to learn or master anything if the rules are changing as we play?

    And yeah, this sub-forum totally needed some love.
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  • FreemanFreeman REGISTERED Posts: 141
    Well, not so much changing the use of the item, but adding more utility to them. Like what if we only had the ability to smelt gold into nuggets? Eventually we'd be like "Well whats the point of that?" and people would start ignoring gold altogether. They could change that and make it that we could then hammer the nuggets into coins. Voila! Now we have a currency, and collecting gold has become a tempting thing again.

    For another example: There will be altars in the game. If the community ends up never using the altars for their intended purpose for whatever reason, they could add more uses for the altars.

    Basically the devs could use their Orwellian nightmare to make sure no item is useless.

    Not to mention, since we'd be in beta for quite a span of time, I reckon the rules will be constantly changing based on their data.
  • LeifLeif REGISTERED Posts: 361 Seed
    Freeman wrote:
    Well, not so much changing the use of the item, but adding more utility to them. Like what if we only had the ability to smelt gold into nuggets? Eventually we'd be like "Well whats the point of that?" and people would start ignoring gold altogether. They could change that and make it that we could then hammer the nuggets into coins. Voila! Now we have a currency, and collecting gold has become a tempting thing again.

    For another example: There will be altars in the game. If the community ends up never using the altars for their intended purpose for whatever reason, they could add more uses for the altars.

    Basically the devs could use their Orwellian nightmare to make sure no item is useless.

    Not to mention, since we'd be in beta for quite a span of time, I reckon the rules will be constantly changing based on their data.

    Ah. I understand. I'm sure you're right and that they will be tweaking things constantly this way based on our behaviour. Especially prior to launch.
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  • TestamentofTestamentof REGISTERED Posts: 1,234 Seed
    If we get chiselling/item customization into the game, then ore --> Ingots --> coins is definately a good way to go about it.

    We could also adapt a system where the most used item/ore is the baseline of the economy, and if someone wants to know the price, they can either trade an item or trade for the most used item/ore.
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  • WingidonWingidon REGISTERED Posts: 1,128 Seed
    I imagine people having molds for gold coins, then the vendors having to make sure the coins are of real gold c:
  • FrostTheTacticianFrostTheTactician REGISTERED Posts: 176 Seed
    Slightly of topic, but this is where my mind went.

    If gold coins became the standard currency in TUG. I would be interested in seeing how long it would take for players to adopt another kind of currency with no intrinsic value (like paper money) if gold coins no longer were practical. (If gold suddenly became really rare or became more useful for something else.)
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  • FreemanFreeman REGISTERED Posts: 141
    Frost, that would be something to see.
  • SigilSigil REGISTERED Posts: 678 Developer
    Well you realize paper money is highly regulated and made specifically to be difficult to forge. TUG would be much harder environment to do that in. You'd first need a government and second, an item to distribute that only you could make.

    The reason Gold coins work is because society has placed value on the shiny metals. (we're cavemen) It's rarity and it's desirability by kings and nobility made it a something that was always redeemable from the richest among them.

    Essentially something of value will likely become our common coin, however barter will be the dominant force.
  • Youngy798Youngy798 REGISTERED Posts: 905 Seed
    I was thinking about Minecraft. Minecraft isn't fit for an economy, you magically create tons of an item out of nowhere, by sitting at a spawner. Once someone finds a dungeon (Not very difficult at all) there is then an infinite supply of those items on the map, witch huts can create infinite glowstone, glass, redstone etc.
    Hello there! I am Youngy future owner of Plainhold (hopefully), go read the topic about Plainhold, and the Lemurian Empire, maybe also some of my other posts, like my mining suggestions! :)

    Bye!
  • SinnonSinnon REGISTERED Posts: 383 Seed
    Remember that actual money is worth anything!, its just a representation of the goverment's gold & other valuables reserves, with the actual society the world of tug is generating, in the alpha stage will be possible an introduction to "player to player economy/exchange" or PPE. We'll see as the community evolves.
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    Enlist your faction in Seekers Order, sub-groups or alliances are not problem with the enlisting, since we are a not a clan, just a UN sistem of organization.
  • inoino REGISTERED Posts: 131
    Well, in order for these gold coins, or any agreed upon currency.... first some formed body of dominance/power would have to agree that that form of currency is acceptable to use for universal trade. This said, it is quite likely that a group of your core members in the community now can easily come to an agreement of what to use. But that could not necessarily be said for any new communities popping up within the world. And eventually, your groups will need to trade among one another, which not likely will adopt your coin/currency.

    You would still fall back to trade of goods to determine a need, which would define the value of that item/material/commodity. If they have all the bananas in their home land, and you need banana guts (yum) to make an ointment to effectively heal frostbite in your mountain village, then you would need to trade something of value to them.

    In order for a more "universal" currency to be adopted... conflict must occur, simply because there will be a need to establish dominance and THEN "enforce" peace... and that could take some serious work and coordination. "Rome was not built in a day"... This actually will make the adventure servers interesting... because there really is no method for conflict resolution, as calling eachother jerk faces or crackin wise on someones momma cannot always lead to solutions...

    Mountain people: hey jerkface, your momma is fat
    Island people: no, YOUR momma is fat
    Mountain people: nu uh... YOUR momma is fat
    Island people: man... I wanna punch you so hard right now, but magical forces are not letting me resolve this issue in the only way we can in our crude state of world development... so no... YOUR momma is fat.
    Mountain people: Ya know... you are right... my momma is fat... I accept your culture and way of life... we shall adopt your currencies, traditions and general outlook on life.
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  • Youngy798Youngy798 REGISTERED Posts: 905 Seed
    So Ino, does this mean that TUG won't suffer from the same floor as in Minecraft, where everyone can create every item extremely easy. What is stopping that mountain village taking a banana plant to their village and growing it? Will there be an optimal temperature for plants which makes them only grow able in certain climates and rainfall locations?
    Trading is basically broken when everyone can produce every item, in Minecraft I have no need to buy Jungle wood if I am in a forest, mainly because I can walk for a few minutes and gather stacks and stacks of it extremely quickly. Buying the wood would actually be more economically damaging to me than actually going out and working.
    Hello there! I am Youngy future owner of Plainhold (hopefully), go read the topic about Plainhold, and the Lemurian Empire, maybe also some of my other posts, like my mining suggestions! :)

    Bye!
  • JoeJoe REGISTERED Posts: 264 Seed
    I think we can safely say that bananas don't grow on mountains.
    This makes me thing of those monk dudes that live up in mountains in Skyrim. Those sorts of places inspire me.
    But anyway, I'm glad that TUG isn't going the down the farm-all-the-monsters-to-get-gold route. Instead, if we want furs, we kill animals. If we want to trade it with someone who is really bad at hunting, we can. Bartering ftw.
  • SmartyOf95SmartyOf95 REGISTERED Posts: 394
    But Ino, there are other ways to fight each other than all out conflict... Instead of killing each other, you could build an army of... well basically griefers to go and destroy each others towns. If sickness ends up being a thing, you could send diseased seeds to go infect your enemies. You could poison wells, destroy crops and livestock, chop down all the trees in an area, collapse a towns mine or unleash an army of demons to rampage in a city. Not being able to kill directly is merely an inconvenience if you get creative and sometimes you don't even need to kill, just take out a towns main resource. Then they'll be completely ruined.
    - Member of the Arcane Council, the Ruling body of Ars Arcanus.
  • DovahKiinDovahKiin REGISTERED Posts: 29
    joe, im definitely making a greybeards temple now.
  • Nova1824Nova1824 REGISTERED Posts: 103
    This idea of conflict between groups of people (Cities or Civilizations) is exciting and has great potential for gameplay but I was wondering: How will this work if not everyone is on at the same time?

    For instance: 2 Cities are fighting over a plot of land. For 2 hours they fight until there is a winner. Then they claim that plot of land as there own and log off to go to bed. The next day, the city who lost the fight just reoccupies the land because no one in the opposing city is online. The conflict is pointless.

    This may have already been answered somewhere else but I just thought I would bring it up.

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  • inoino REGISTERED Posts: 131
    Well, those things you mention @SmartyOf95, for all intents are purposes are measures taken up as a result of conflict and or a lead into it. The thing that interests me is, when artificial rules are in place --cannot harm others unless flagged for PVP--, how will people resolve those issues? I am certain things will take place... perhaps designated battles to settle disputes, rock paper scissors etc... but how do you make them honor it with no real direct fear or consequence of reprisals?
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  • SmartyOf95SmartyOf95 REGISTERED Posts: 394
    What I was trying to day before is there are other ways to fight without actually directly killing someone by running them through with a sword. Instead you can threaten one or more of the things I listed above, and if whoever your threatening doesn't comply, take action. So unless when you say "no PvP" you mean players take no damage, someone is going to find some way to kill other players. I mean, even if traps were somehow disabled and griefing was too, you could still just lure some wild beast into a house or drop sand on someone like minecraft. Getting around the "no direct damage" thing isn't that hard and because of this, you'll have player fighting and wars regardless. It'll just be a different sort of war.
    - Member of the Arcane Council, the Ruling body of Ars Arcanus.
  • Nova1824Nova1824 REGISTERED Posts: 103
    @Ino I think I have the solution
    I am certain things will take place... perhaps designated battles to settle disputes, rock paper scissors etc... but how do you make them honor it with no real direct fear or consequence of reprisals?

    To make them honor it there has to be consequences for not honoring your word. Maybe you could make the code that monitors player behavior punish players that are tagged as dishonest, trolls.

    But the consequence could always be killing them latter. Sweet revenge. :lol:

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  • SinnonSinnon REGISTERED Posts: 383 Seed
    War is an essencial factor of humanity, since its the main contrast of peace, and in some weird way... generates extremely large amounts of "virtual" money, moving quite alot the economy. So I in some way support war.

    Returning to the main topic, just as Ino said, the community needs to be the power, and not invisible barriers, like pvp protection, if we can actually place order within the community, we can make our own "moral barriers" just like in real life, tryin to make the players act like if they were in real life when playing, just in another world.

    This will require alot of previous organization, so we can actually make a real and stable economy, though we need to take some factors in mind. Depending on conditons, there might need to be a global "curerncy" which is needs to have no particular use, or be ineficient for a private use [creation of armor, alchemy potions, etc.] needs to be like a helpless unusefull material, that is actually hard to get.

    Do you remember ender pearls in minecraft?, when they had no particular use, most players used it as an economic currency, but due to its easy recollection, a larger amount of them were required to actually buy things, which would render recollecting them quite useless.

    We could use a system similar to that one, but we might need help from other players to have a base economy to start from. Also, a credit system might be usefull, but we must need actually player made and fully functional banks to make this, which also need to be quite trustable and had a weight over the community.
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    Enlist your faction in Seekers Order, sub-groups or alliances are not problem with the enlisting, since we are a not a clan, just a UN sistem of organization.
  • Nova1824Nova1824 REGISTERED Posts: 103
    economics is fascinating.

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