Curse Forge?

24

Comments

  • TestamentofTestamentof REGISTERED Posts: 1,234 Seed
    I'm a bit more partial towards Nexus, even if they don't have all the tools and willingness to make tools.
    That being said I have seen Squad do exactly what Ino is talking about when their Kerbal Space Program Mod hosting site folded, and they seem to have avoided most of the fears presented here.
    The Machine is on....

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  • The ArcanianThe Arcanian REGISTERED Posts: 51 Seed
    From the facts that Ino presented CurseForge does seam like the best choice. Steam would not provide any data nor would they use any provided yet curse would on both accounts, this in and of itself sounds like a huge boon.
    The bad rep is honestly something I think should be ignored if it can not be proven that Curse is in any way toxic to its communities, which is also a non-issue because we are not taking about any official forum from Curse.

    @spacedot
    1. To my knowledge using CurseForge for mods does not mean that TUG can no longer be distributed via Steam.
    2. Ads are how Curse chooses to support itself, and that has to be accepted unless you can get them to change it or find a better alternative (Steam does not count imo)
    3. TUG is a one-time-buy, if someone is pulled away by ads it has no impact on NK and Minecraft is proof that ads are not needed to get the word out.
    Nerd? You say that like it's an insult.

    Please excuse any bad spelling...
  • AzzyAzzy REGISTERED Posts: 182
    I'm quite in favour of going with curse for mod hosting, why ? Because the platform already exists, is widely used and that alone can only generate more eyes on TUG which is a good thing.

    Not to mention the very good point that time spend by Nerd Kingdom doing all of that stuff is time and money not spent on developing the actual game.

    @spacedot. Fine you don't like curse. But there are thousands of people out there who DO, me being one of them.
    They make mods super easy to install and manage and just take the pain out of it. Btw, Noone is saying you HAVE to use the curse client, they don't even make you do that now. They host them and you are free to download it on your own or through the client.

    At the end of the day, Curse is a business, Nerd Kingdom is a business, and no matter how warm and fuzzy you might like things to be, the reality is that business requires money to tick.

    Are Nerd Kingdom different? In a way yes, because they are actually asking us, the community to have a say.
    In this instance though I don't think the best decision would be to avoid curse because "insert opinion of curse here" type arguments.

    It's a business decision and the most sensible route to take would be to go with Curse. Plain and simple.
  • DemidevimonDemidevimon REGISTERED Posts: 19 Seed
    I curse is a no go.
    we could allways do what Gmod originally had to do ie.
    Go to Gmod.org for map/addons an everything else
    TuG.org 2014
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  • spacedotspacedot REGISTERED Posts: 416 Seed
    So many responses to do.
    ino wrote:
    Oh @spacedot... always such a delight. And still, not enough argument to explain to me why that is bad, aside from people have to make a segmented account... its possible that we may be able to make that port quite easy, though... but that should not stop progress.

    its true, before I did want to, but it was ultimately my call even after the community began to turn in favor of it (this was a forums topic before, however, not a mod hosting topic). I did not feel comfortable with what was being said and offered so we stepped back from them. Now, we are much further along, have something awesome to show, have more leverage, they have more tech... its a different topic.

    And again, its really us leveraging their tools, not us changing any control at all... its in their best interests to do what we need them to do, or we retract support of them. Its that simple.

    And I am open to anything else being a better solution, really I am... this is just the one that I have with the information I have.

    o baby please. If you want to see if the tone that you think i am using it the one i think i am using just pm your skype and i will read my posts to you. To respond my main argument against curse is their way they practice business. Not the tools or the community which i am not informed enough about. They want to be apart of you, if you have already made your mind about doing it at least play hard to get so you can get more.

    It might be a different topic but you are getting different responses than last time. You also didn't send out a email to the backers asking their opinion this time too. I think the better solution is to not do anything right now. How many mods are even made at this point?
    @spacedot
    1. To my knowledge using CurseForge for mods does not mean that TUG can no longer be distributed via Steam.
    2. Ads are how Curse chooses to support itself, and that has to be accepted unless you can get them to change it or find a better alternative (Steam does not count imo)
    3. TUG is a one-time-buy, if someone is pulled away by ads it has no impact on NK and Minecraft is proof that ads are not needed to get the word out.

    1. never suggested it did.
    2. Curse is not just adds. Its premium service advertisements which are on every page with the deals it does with company's to advertise their games.
    3. Yes it is a one time buy right now. What about if micro transactions are added in? which would be silly not to do considering how people are very open to them at this point. Minecraft is a one is a million game which has defined a entire genre. You cant use something like that as a example. Just like you shouldn't use doom as a example of why you should give out the newest COD for free.
  • The ArcanianThe Arcanian REGISTERED Posts: 51 Seed
    spacedot wrote:
    So many responses to do.
    ino wrote:
    -snip-

    o baby please. If you want to see if the tone that you think i am using it the one i think i am using just pm your skype and i will read my posts to you. To respond my main argument against curse is their way they practice business. Not the tools or the community which i am not informed enough about. They want to be apart of you, if you have already made your mind about doing it at least play hard to get so you can get more.

    It might be a different topic but you are getting different responses than last time. You also didn't send out a email to the backers asking their opinion this time too. I think the better solution is to not do anything right now. How many mods are even made at this point?
    @spacedot
    1. To my knowledge using CurseForge for mods does not mean that TUG can no longer be distributed via Steam.
    2. Ads are how Curse chooses to support itself, and that has to be accepted unless you can get them to change it or find a better alternative (Steam does not count imo)
    3. TUG is a one-time-buy, if someone is pulled away by ads it has no impact on NK and Minecraft is proof that ads are not needed to get the word out.

    1. never suggested it did.
    2. Curse is not just adds. Its premium service advertisements which are on every page with the deals it does with company's to advertise their games.
    3. Yes it is a one time buy right now. What about if micro transactions are added in? which would be silly not to do considering how people are very open to them at this point. Minecraft is a one is a million game which has defined a entire genre. You cant use something like that as a example. Just like you shouldn't use doom as a example of why you should give out the newest COD for free.
    I really don't think NK compromising there vision is something we really have a worry about, I have seen no evidence of the possibility of this happening so far.

    1.
    spacedot wrote:
    If you want to talk about possible sale generation compare how much you think Curse can get vs how much Valve can get you. If you stay with Valve your customers don't have to do more to get mods. They already have a steam account with TUG on it. You go with Curse we all have to get Curse accounts and download the client. You will lose people just from having to do that step.
    I seemed like that is what you were suggesting here, guess I was mistaken. Regardless mods will not be the only draw of TUG and anyone that comes from MC will likely already have one.

    2. If you are talking about Curse Premium it is no different from something like a freemium MMO, not to say this is the best way to function, but it is a prevalent method and you can not really get mad at them for doing it. And if it is special ads for games that they have partnered with it is not like they would only do the ads on TUG CurseForge they do it on all of there sites equally, and if TUG ever started advertising it would have the same benefits that the others do now. Also I really don't think people are that fickle.

    3. Saying it would be silly not to add in micro transactions just because people are open to them is bad a validation and I believe falls under the bandwagon fallacy. There are more things to consider when it comes to something like micro transactions then peoples openness, like if it fits with the game design, and personally I can not see how TUG could do micro transactions without locking features away from players. Minecraft may not have been the best example because of its exceptional growth, but there are plenty of other examples of word of mouth being sufficient: Google, Amazon (don't think they had ads at the start), Dwarf Fortress, Kerbal Space Program, Don't Starve, Faster Than Light, Magicka, Terraria, Starbound, need I continue?
    Nerd? You say that like it's an insult.

    Please excuse any bad spelling...
  • spacedotspacedot REGISTERED Posts: 416 Seed
    spacedot wrote:
    So many responses to do.
    ino wrote:
    -snip-

    o baby please. If you want to see if the tone that you think i am using it the one i think i am using just pm your skype and i will read my posts to you. To respond my main argument against curse is their way they practice business. Not the tools or the community which i am not informed enough about. They want to be apart of you, if you have already made your mind about doing it at least play hard to get so you can get more.

    It might be a different topic but you are getting different responses than last time. You also didn't send out a email to the backers asking their opinion this time too. I think the better solution is to not do anything right now. How many mods are even made at this point?
    @spacedot
    1. To my knowledge using CurseForge for mods does not mean that TUG can no longer be distributed via Steam.
    2. Ads are how Curse chooses to support itself, and that has to be accepted unless you can get them to change it or find a better alternative (Steam does not count imo)
    3. TUG is a one-time-buy, if someone is pulled away by ads it has no impact on NK and Minecraft is proof that ads are not needed to get the word out.

    1. never suggested it did.
    2. Curse is not just adds. Its premium service advertisements which are on every page with the deals it does with company's to advertise their games.
    3. Yes it is a one time buy right now. What about if micro transactions are added in? which would be silly not to do considering how people are very open to them at this point. Minecraft is a one is a million game which has defined a entire genre. You cant use something like that as a example. Just like you shouldn't use doom as a example of why you should give out the newest COD for free.
    I really don't think NK compromising there vision is something we really have a worry about, I have seen no evidence of the possibility of this happening so far.

    1.
    spacedot wrote:
    If you want to talk about possible sale generation compare how much you think Curse can get vs how much Valve can get you. If you stay with Valve your customers don't have to do more to get mods. They already have a steam account with TUG on it. You go with Curse we all have to get Curse accounts and download the client. You will lose people just from having to do that step.
    I seemed like that is what you were suggesting here, guess I was mistaken. Regardless mods will not be the only draw of TUG and anyone that comes from MC will likely already have one.

    2. If you are talking about Curse Premium it is no different from something like a freemium MMO, not to say this is the best way to function, but it is a prevalent method and you can not really get mad at them for doing it. And if it is special ads for games that they have partnered with it is not like they would only do the ads on TUG CurseForge they do it on all of there sites equally, and if TUG ever started advertising it would have the same benefits that the others do now. Also I really don't think people are that fickle.

    3. Saying it would be silly not to add in micro transactions just because people are open to them is bad a validation and I believe falls under the bandwagon fallacy. There are more things to consider when it comes to something like micro transactions then peoples openness, like if it fits with the game design, and personally I can not see how TUG could do micro transactions without locking features away from players. Minecraft may not have been the best example because of its exceptional growth, but there are plenty of other examples of word of mouth being sufficient: Google, Amazon (don't think they had ads at the start), Dwarf Fortress, Kerbal Space Program, Don't Starve, Faster Than Light, Magicka, Terraria, Starbound, need I continue?

    1. Was meaning between mods only. Not the game itself.

    2. Them being a freemuim website is my problem with them. Its not even a game yet its charging you a sub. They are using every way they can to make more money. Even if its not aloud by the game ( Curse voice and lol ). Do you guys really want Curse to make addons like that for TUG which become a necessity for players to have, but to obtain them you have to sub? Because that happened. Its not special adds for games its partnered with, its for those who pay. TUG isn't spending money on advertising which means no adds. Yes gamers are fickle.

    3. So you are in favor for freemium but not for microtransactions. To quote yourself " but it is a prevalent method and you can not really get mad at them for doing it." Purely aesthetic micro-transactions would have no impact on game features. Google and Amazon aren't games, no idea why you would bring them into this. Since people don't always say when they are getting paid to make videos i can't disprove all of those games listed. But this line "Thanks to Klei Entertainment for their support in making this possible." from a yogscast video suggests klei has paid them. You are also not including TUG which has not done any. Yet as of writing this there is 20k people who have a copy and 992 forum members registered here. Seems like they wouldn't need Curses advertizement's.
  • TestamentofTestamentof REGISTERED Posts: 1,234 Seed
    edited July 2014
    spacedot wrote:
    2. Them being a freemuim website is my problem with them. Its not even a game yet its charging you a sub. They are using every way they can to make more money. Even if its not aloud by the game ( Curse voice and lol ). Do you guys really want Curse to make addons like that for TUG which become a necessity for players to have, but to obtain them you have to sub?

    ok, I'm going to cut and paste straight from their client download page

    "The Curse Client is an addon manager that allows you to browse, install, and update your addons. It's free, lightweight, and easy to use!"

    hang on let's read that again

    "The Curse Client is an addon manager that allows you to browse, install, and update your addons. It's free, lightweight, and easy to use!"

    I think it just said that the client is free. Hmmm, so... if it's free, I don't have to pay for it right? that's what free means?

    in fact, the only thing I can see that the Premium users get is faster downloads speeds and no ads on the client. which is just like most other addon managers

    EDIT: I am now using said client. I can see a lot of addons for several games that I have installed, and I've downloaded a few, and I didn't have to pay a cent.
    The Machine is on....

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  • spacedotspacedot REGISTERED Posts: 416 Seed
    spacedot wrote:
    2. Them being a freemuim website is my problem with them. Its not even a game yet its charging you a sub. They are using every way they can to make more money. Even if its not aloud by the game ( Curse voice and lol ). Do you guys really want Curse to make addons like that for TUG which become a necessity for players to have, but to obtain them you have to sub?

    ok, I'm going to cut and paste straight from their client download page

    "The Curse Client is an addon manager that allows you to browse, install, and update your addons. It's free, lightweight, and easy to use!"

    hang on let's read that again

    "The Curse Client is an addon manager that allows you to browse, install, and update your addons. It's free, lightweight, and easy to use!"

    I think it just said that the client is free. Hmmm, so... if it's free, I don't have to pay for it right? that's what free means?

    in fact, the only thing I can see that the Premium users get is faster downloads speeds and no ads on the client. which is just like most other addon managers

    Curse voice was for members when first released. They gave out keys to streamers the next week to get people to use it. Then later it went totally free after they got everyone who would pay for it to already do that. Its still in beta too and most likely will be for awhile since the main reason it was made is mobs and lol said it wont allow it.
  • TestamentofTestamentof REGISTERED Posts: 1,234 Seed
    Yeah I'm not using Curse Voice, I'm using the Addon Manager AKA Curse Client
    The Machine is on....

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  • spacedotspacedot REGISTERED Posts: 416 Seed
    Yeah I'm not using Curse Voice, I'm using the Addon Manager AKA Curse Client

    I am not against the client just the company. Clients aren't things you should be against unless they don't work or work poorly.
  • KadahKadah REGISTERED Posts: 7
    I think part/most of the distrust (not so much hate) of Cursed came from their apparent sudden take over of various community aspects of some games.
    I my own experience, Cursed came out of nowhere and was suddenly running the MC forums, which happened around the time I was about to active start participating. It was rather an affront and felt like a sellout. I ended up bailing shortly after starting as it seem like the tone and mood of that community had changed. After that point, it appeared to become accepted to wrap every little thing in adf.ly or similar.
    The same thing happened a short while later to the MC wiki, which was very largely a negativity IMO. The MC wiki content shoehorned in to a Cursed frame totally ruined the format on virtually every article by the annoying Cursed sidebar (which was scripted in such a way as to make it impossible to remove with element hiders or Grease Monkey scripts).
    Then came the Cursed Premium spam.
    In short, the apparently Cursed take over of the MC community left a very sour taste for me and likely for others too.

    The FTB launcher Cursed merger has yet to be seen how that will turn out. Either it will be no different (hopfully faster downloads) or a disaster of some level. I am wary of it to say the least.


    A little post preface about myself,
    I haven't played around with TUG yet, I'm coming to it completely new from the Yogventures fallout (I was a high tier funder). After hearing about it from Lewis's initial announcement, I went and watched Direwolf20's spotlight on Tug. What I saw, but more so what was said, was enough to make me highly interested in checking the prospects of modding on it.
    I started modding (publicly) long ago in early years of Garry's Mod 10. Back then I went by TAD2020. I started off making contributions to, then very shortly there after, taking over and heading development for Wiremod. Later this branched out to many others, AdvDupe, SpaceBuild, lots of other things and stuff I have forgotten.
    In the first couple years of Wiremod, my web admin and myself funded the hosting of it out of pocket. High bandwidth hosting back then was not cheap (many hundreds per month) and we were pushing something like 200k downloads/updates a week. We did not do donations, expect when we needed to renew license for the forum, since we knew they would never been regular enough to cover the reoccurring costs. Google AdSense did helped some due to the high traffic our own forum got.

    That was about 10 years ago. I'm not actively involved in the project anymore, but we still run it from the background. A lot of things have changed. Web hosting is trivially inexpensive. All the downloads and code repos are hosted on Bitbucket. Our out of pocket is $20/m and that's only due to the forum. Steamworkshop did not affect us other than adding extra work to do releases, but was nicer for the end user only because it highly simplified install and updating; though we were pretty much responsible for exposing an entire generation of GMod players and modders wonders of SVN.

    (In the time after GMod I got involved with another open source project, an alternate client for Second Life, but its not relative to game modding and its problems are an order of magnitude greater than TUG currently.)

    Lately I have been mulling over the idea of getting back in to modding once RL work calms down. I had been considering MC modding for some years, but the "need to learn Java" step has been procrastination hurdle most of the time. (Back in the early dev of Yogventures, I was planning to get in to the modding bits more when they were to come, but that soon petered out and became obvious the game was in trouble. Know we know why.)

    TUG looks pretty good for me in the respects that is Lua based and I f'ing love Lua. I've got a log of catching up to do now, but not as bad as MC's at least.


    But I digress,

    In terms of Steam Workshop vs Cursed, its, to me, a choice of least worse option. From a modder's perspective, what I need is somewhere to host files to download, host source code, track bugs, somewhere sane for users to post their crazy and poorly spelled feedback.
    The middle two are trivial now, its pretty much picking with source control system you like more and going with either Bitbucket or Github. The last is easily served by the game's official forum, I really doubt I'll make anything on my own again that will require its own community like Wiremod did, and even then it would only be a matter of finding moderators.
    The download hosting would be the only thing I would actually have to find a solution for, bandwidth is really cheap now, but in the US its highly marked up at the smaller quantities.
    There are a few things that would make what ever mod hosting TUG goes with attractive to me: that it would not necessary for me to teach the player how to install a mod; that updates are semi-automatic, ie. "Hey, there is an update for mod xyz.", I'm not a fan of forced auto-updaters; that there is no or few ads involved, zero deceptive ads (adf.ly is plagued with fake download buttons and maleware), no obvious or direct attempts to monetize of others' work, and absolutely no bloody pay-walls/download lines/limits; and highly preferably not-yet-another-account requirement at least on the users end, eg. not a Cursed-based launcher.

    I would never consider using Cursed forge for anything more than hosting release downloads, and only then if it was a requirement of the game's restrictions or from bandwidth costs perspective. I do not see Cursed bring any added value to project hosting that isn't already better achieved by the free level of services from professional project hosting companies. I do even feel that the separation of the mod's project on to a Bitbucket or Github to be a feature, it adds a just enough of a learning curve noticeably improve the SNR on bug reports.


    I've read over the comments here and Steam Workshop does seem too limited. I am only a little familiar with it and it appeared to be a much more of a headache for being a modder than it was worth. Cursed, I hate saying this, looks like a viable options but the devil is in the details, implementation, and future changes to both of those.


    Sorry if this was a bit rambly, its after 1:30am and I wanted to get his posted today. Much too tired to be able to proof decently, might do edits tomorrow its really bad.


    TL;DR,
    Cursed earned its bad rap for some people by its sudden public appearance in the community as it took control of various parts of it for profit. I've modded a lot in the past for GMod when everything was the dark days of running mods, and we lived. Running a mod project is trivial now. Workshop is nothing special. Meh, Cursed is likely ok unless terms and/or implementation ends up sucking.


    -Kadah
  • TestamentofTestamentof REGISTERED Posts: 1,234 Seed
    Other than Spacedot, and maybe Kadah (Hello by the way, nice to meet you!), who is against using Curse to host our Mods online?
    The Machine is on....

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  • MarlorMarlor REGISTERED Posts: 1
    ino wrote:
    it would be ONLY curseforge, not steam workshop if we did do this.
    If the deal forces you not to use not steam workshop, something that is easier for the enduser, then it is no good deal in the long run.
  • TestamentofTestamentof REGISTERED Posts: 1,234 Seed
    I don't think that the deal explicitly stops them from using workshop (I don't know, not a Dev) but I would think that NK would be choosing CurseForge OVER Workshop.
    The Machine is on....

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  • spacedotspacedot REGISTERED Posts: 416 Seed
    @ kadah thanks for a long post explaining some modding history and where peoples general distrust of Curse comes from. You also used digress correctly. I like you.



    Other than Spacedot, and maybe Kadah (Hello by the way, nice to meet you!), who is against using Curse to host our Mods online?

    Demidevon i think and "This would mean no steam workshop support" is what ino said.
  • ValidifyedValidifyed REGISTERED Posts: 612 Seed
    ino wrote:
    We are talking about mod hosting. That's it.

    Here's what you need to make sure they wont do, indeed, refuse them permission to do;
    - Comment on Mods
    - Write reviews or descriptions of mods
    - Push premium member mods further forward or make them seem better
    - Throttle download speeds deliberately to make a bigger premium incentive (Granted, Donors should get download priority, Im talking about capping DL speed when there is noone else downloading, that sort of thing.)
    - Post videos of any kind anywhere on the TUG section of their Mod website
    - Control Announcements, news or otherwise, these should be kept to update notes on their main page, not TUGs section - the community should have control of this, by mass, either developers post news or mods are pushed up by the community enough to post.

    These are things in my experience that Curse always puts their foot into without justification.

    Other than that, It would be nice to speak to someone that earns money through Curse, as the system seems to be clouded by their dumb points system, no basic numbers or anything.
    In nexus, you either donate to a mod, or NMM itself, they are separate, there is no percentage taking. Curse has done their best to blur this line and I highly doubt that was done by accident of design. While looking through the mods, I saw only 1 mod with their own Donate button, allowing them to accept donations 100% (Only 1 presumably because its such a pain in the a** to setup a paypal account for business.) - So every other mod could only make money through Curses "We take first pick of the profits" system.

    Other than that... long... long.. list of issues, if they can be overcome, and If you really think there is some unspoken advantage of curse over nexus... Then Id be ok with it, but only they.

    PS;;

    I mean, you could just demand that every mod gets an optional donate button with 100% going direct to creator... If someone comes along and tells us that the money share is rubbish.
  • ValidifyedValidifyed REGISTERED Posts: 612 Seed
    ino wrote:
    Nexus: Large community of mod authors, lots of skyrim modders, community tech showing no advancement, no data to speak of

    Granted, they don't progress technology, but why should they? Their MM works, it sucks a bit nowadays, sure, but thats opened up room for ModOrginiser to take the stand, a community made replacement for skyrim, and we wouldn't be using the MM anyway, so it would still fall to a community member to make a mod launcher if they wanted to.

    Other then that; their system works. What more do you need? You upload pics, vids, a description, a paypal account and the files you want to share, and its done.
  • jadedcatjadedcat REGISTERED Posts: 5
    Full disclosure: I am biased, I am currently a Curse employee and help manage mods on Curse Forge. So if T.U.G. ends up on CF you'll probably see a lot of me. I am not here to argue for T.U.G. being on CF, its a bit obvious that I would want one of my favorite games to have mods hosted on a site I help manage. However reading through the thread I have seen a few areas where people seem to be misunderstanding some Curse community interactions.

    Disclaimer: While I am a Curse employee, and I work on CurseForge I am not speaking for Curse, and nothing I say comes from Curse. I am just explaining/clarifying things to the best of my knowledge from a different viewpoint.


    Backtracking a bit for history. 4 years ago was when I first had any experiences with Curse. At the time I led raids twice a week in WoW and used addons to manage my abilities and raid team. I used the Curse Addon to download install and update those addons. I never had any issues doing so even as a free user. The client worked, and the free limits were more than enough for me to do everything I needed to do.

    A little over 2 years ago I got started in Minecraft. Six months after that I was part of the Feed the Beast team. On the day the FTB forums launched I became one of 3 lead moderators for FTB. And I have stayed as such all the way through Curse partnering with FTB and my eventual employment by Curse.

    Last fall Slowpoke (FTB founder) approached me to ask my opinion of a Curse partnership. I told him then that I felt it could go really well, or it could fail horribly, but that if it failed we still had our launcher and packs and I couldn't see a failure having a massive effect on us. My only concern was that no one interfere with how our forums were run. Curse made it clear at that time that they offered forum hosting and forum software not forum leaders or management. There are several threads on the FTB forums where people discuss the concerns about the partnership. Its easy to see Curse never asked us to censor those threads or a lot of the posts would not exist.

    As to my history with T.U.G. At this point I don't remember if I found T.U.G before or after Slowpoke but it was around the same time. I loved the idea of the game from day one. I have even visited their offices once, though everyone kept shooting me with nerf guns. And one of the programmers killed my poor little seed :( . I have streamed T.U.G. and backed it every chance I can get. This was before I went to work for Curse.

    This spring Slowpoke announced the Curse partnership. The gentleman in charge of the Curse client overhaul ended up being forced to spend quite a lot of time with me. I am not well known in this community, but in the modded Minecraft community I am known for making insane modpacks that change the game enough that they have started to be called gamepacks. In February I released the public beta of my newest pack. By April that pack had more unique downloads and players than Kerbal Space Program or T.U.G. (KSP may have passed it by now). Going based on the reported number of PC players that have purchased Minecraft over 25% of all MC players have played my pack. Personally I find that rather mind boggling.

    In the middle of creating and launching that pack Kaelten the gentleman in charge of the launcher rebuild offered me a job managing mods on CurseForge. I did a lot of research into the company and their practices. The only part I disliked was the ads, and Curse has posted in several places that they are removing the ads from the new Curse Client. With ads the client has never been any more annoying than the ads I receive on Skype. Even when I was a free user of Curse I never felt badgered to purchase premium. Not like facebook game micro-transactions. Curse just had a banner and sent me an email every now and again that I could filter out. So I took the job. And got Curse premium as a perk. I save 3 seconds per mod I download of Curse.com. I save 5-10 seconds by downloading from Curse when possible as opposed to ad.fly or mediafire. Even as a free user I never found the 3 sec wait to be an issue.

    Having been on both sides of the fence, as a user and then as a Curse employee it startles me at times some of the comments I see about Curse and communities. Curse doesn't run the communities, they provide forum hosting, forum software and technical support. With the Minecraft forums they pay a couple of the full time moderators. Not to tell them how to run the forums, just to make it easier for those people to devote time to the community. Curse is not responsible for the content of the Minecraft wiki, or 90% of the moderators of the MCForums. Just like with FTB. I am paid to help manage CurseForge, as a side job I manage the FTB forums. And while some people might consider that a conflict of interest, it would be hard to prove seeing the number of people who make posts complaining about Curse that are never removed because FTB does not censor our forums. So far Curse has never suggested we should censor the forums. As to the news articles someone mentioned from the front page of MCF, if Curse was telling the content/news manager what to highlight, why is he highlighting mods that aren't on CurseForge? Such as http://www.minecraftforum.net/news/5982 ... enviromine . I'm not sure what of the spotlighted content counts as corporate content except maybe the Minethon news, which was a 3 day event to raise money for a charity that helps disabled individuals get access to accessibility equipment for video games.

    Both as a user and an employee: Curse doesn't dictate the type of community that is created, they offer tools to help manage and grow the community. We are always open to feedback about how to improve the tools and services we offer. Is it perfect? No. We grow and change with the communities we are involved in. Several things have had to be added to the client development due to how massively popular that gamepack I made has become. I think the reason people sometimes think Curse is controlling more than they do is because they have a habit of hiring experts from inside the community. Not to control the community but to allow people to do what they love without worrying about how to pay the bills.

    Like me. I am a disabled veteran, I can't hold a normal job between physical therapy and mobility issues. Curse offered me a job where the content I create remains my own, I get to interact with mod devs, addon authors, game developers and amazing game communities. All things I did prior to being employed. The only difference is Curse freed me from having to worry how I was going to pay rent, or for car repairs so I can go to the VA hospital and wait 5 hours for a 15 minute lab test. (the VA is not as friendly as Curse). They reimbursed a tablet for me so I can keep in touch with the community and manage mods on CurseForge even while sitting in line at the VA.

    The number one complaint I tend to see about Curse/CurseForge are things about not liking the way it sorts/searches, or not liking the UI. When people come to us and give us feedback we can often solve those issues. A lot of players/devs seem to think that because its a business it won't change and they go complain on reddit or forums. Eventually it gets back to us and its frequently a "Well why didn't you let us know? We can fix that."

    In the end the only way Curse can survive as a business is to provide the best services we can. To provide tools to help communities grow and manage themselves. Curse employees are first and foremost gamers. Gamers are loud, determined and persistent. Its not a traditional company. Its a company made up of people that love games, and love the gaming community. And yes they have found ways to make money doing what they love. As an employee I love being able to make a living from what started as a hobby for me. As a gamer I love being able to find the mods I want easily and install them without having to navigate folders and zips. I can install the that way, I am just a lazy gamer. I'd rather spend my time playing the games and making content for games than finding the folder to install mods into.

    Again I don't speak for Curse. I can only speak for my experiences as a player, user , content creator and employee. Obviously I like Curse or I wouldn't work for them. Whether CF will work for the T.U.G. community is up to the devs and community to decide.


    Now I'll go away, I have to practice Civ 5 so I can finally beat my boss and rule the world :p .
  • jadedcatjadedcat REGISTERED Posts: 5
    Before I wander off I thought I would address this:
    Validifyed wrote:

    While looking through the mods, I saw only 1 mod with their own Donate button, allowing them to accept donations 100% (Only 1 presumably because its such a pain in the a** to setup a paypal account for business.) - So every other mod could only make money through Curses "We take first pick of the profits" system.

    I mean, you could just demand that every mod gets an optional donate button with 100% going direct to creator... If someone comes along and tells us that the money share is rubbish.

    Every project gets this by default. A lot of authors use it.

    donate.png

    Its up to the authors if they want to add a donation link or not. And yes the donation goes directly to whoever owns the link they put in.
  • ValidifyedValidifyed REGISTERED Posts: 612 Seed
    Other than Spacedot, and maybe Kadah (Hello by the way, nice to meet you!), who is against using Curse to host our Mods online?

    A lot of people. Not wanting to be mean, but you clearly haven't been following the thread as closely as I perhaps think one should in order to discuss such a pivotal thing.
  • ValidifyedValidifyed REGISTERED Posts: 612 Seed
    jadedcat wrote:
    Before I wander off I thought I would address this:
    Validifyed wrote:

    While looking through the mods, I saw only 1 mod with their own Donate button, allowing them to accept donations 100% (Only 1 presumably because its such a pain in the a** to setup a paypal account for business.) - So every other mod could only make money through Curses "We take first pick of the profits" system.

    I mean, you could just demand that every mod gets an optional donate button with 100% going direct to creator... If someone comes along and tells us that the money share is rubbish.

    Every project gets this by default. A lot of authors use it.

    **Snipped Image**

    Its up to the authors if they want to add a donation link or not. And yes the donation goes directly to whoever owns the link they put in.

    Well I guess that part has been answered then, thanks, I haven't got first hand experience of being a Mod Uploader with curse so its useful to have someone that does here.

    What sort of share of money are you likely to get with the points system? As this seems to be the main driver for modders.
  • ValidifyedValidifyed REGISTERED Posts: 612 Seed
    jadedcat wrote:
    Curse doesn't run the communities, they provide forum hosting, forum software and technical support. With the Minecraft forums they pay a couple of the full time moderators. Not to tell them how to run the forums, just to make it easier for those people to devote time to the community.

    Allow me to introduce you all to what I call; "A big list of corporate trash that has quite obviously pushed community content into the background"; http://www.minecraftforum.net/

    Unfortunatly the old forum home page dosent exist anymore; http://www.minecraftforum.net/?page=1800 starts on the day of the curse takeover, I would have loved to show you guys the amazing community news that existed before then.

    Here, I found some good ol' "We only push our own content" examples for you all. Enjoy.

    http://www.minecraftforum.net/news/7708 ... yer-format
    http://www.minecraftforum.net/news/7804 ... ame-minetv

    Not sure how it is today (I suspect very little change having gone back and looked at some recent posts) but does anyone remeber when that "Pico" woman AKA Curse Employee, was in every other freaking news post?
  • RawrRawr REGISTERED, Tester Posts: 503 Seed
    Damnit. Late again. Oh well, sleepy old New Zealand is going to chime in here.
    spacedot wrote:
    @kadah You also used digress correctly. I like you.

    Get a room.


    Anyway, @Ino IMO the initial message came across lopsided and subsequent posts skewed further from there. It wasn't until a decent amount of reading into later posts that a sense of clarity was gained. Just something that should be noted when involving the community on an important decision.
    ino wrote:
    The difference here is, with Curse we know they are interested in working to earn our cooperation.
    So maybe curse has done a bit of looking around (Where's the next opportunity and so forth). Yogscast has interest in us which has curse thinking along the lines of 'could be a opportunity here'. You've got a couple of decisions to make.

    Some thoughts:
    Given the level of required hardware by end-users(at this point in time), does it make sense to shift xyz to platform xyz.
    --I liked Kadah's mention of bitbucket and github which could be all we need at this point in time--
    From memory DirectX11 is ~%20-23 of the market(anyone know any recent stats on it?). Congrats on ~150 sales per day but the kind of saturation where a 'large scale' move is necessary may be a while off.
    --I would recommend reframing any current reactions with a bigger regard for the long term picture. Some things sounded knee-jerk--
    Programmer, designer, artist.
  • spacedotspacedot REGISTERED Posts: 416 Seed
    Shhhhh New Zealand is ok the Australia's are already here. Screw you vocabularies are totally hot. Everyone seems to be going on about two things in this thread.Curse as a company and the community's that are on their forums. None of those really is addressing what Ino made this was meant to be about about. Which is the mod hosting group that we wanted to use. Since we are mainly going by opinions how about we do some testing and show why this project has scientific influences. Get Sigils gecko mod and put it on Curse, steamworks and nexusmods, then get a large enough testing group maybe 100 or 50 ranging in different levels of experience with mods. Then have everyone use all three and come back and say how it was. Was it fast? Was it easy to use? Were there any problems? Would you be able to do that without instructions? Like you said Ino you guys want data, so lets go get it.
  • jadedcatjadedcat REGISTERED Posts: 5
    Validifyed wrote:
    jadedcat wrote:
    Curse doesn't run the communities, they provide forum hosting, forum software and technical support. With the Minecraft forums they pay a couple of the full time moderators. Not to tell them how to run the forums, just to make it easier for those people to devote time to the community.

    Allow me to introduce you all to what I call; "A big list of corporate trash that has quite obviously pushed community content into the background"; http://www.minecraftforum.net/

    Unfortunatly the old forum home page dosent exist anymore; http://www.minecraftforum.net/?page=1800 starts on the day of the curse takeover, I would have loved to show you guys the amazing community news that existed before then.

    Here, I found some good ol' "We only push our own content" examples for you all. Enjoy.

    http://www.minecraftforum.net/news/7708 ... yer-format
    http://www.minecraftforum.net/news/7804 ... ame-minetv

    Not sure how it is today (I suspect very little change having gone back and looked at some recent posts) but does anyone remeber when that "Pico" woman AKA Curse Employee, was in every other freaking news post?

    I admit I don't pay that much attention to news sites of any website. However those are both quite old posts (2 years), and I am not sure why having news about Mojang looking for input on a site devoted to Minecraft is a bad thing. I would understand if the MCF news was filled with videos about KSP or WoW etc, but Minecraft news on the Minecraft forums is Curse corporate information?

    In the last few months I see news posts about very well known community events and mod spotlights, a post about the recent snapshot update. Youtube videos from community members that are not part of the Curse youtube network, and other minecraft community content. Its compiled by the content manager but I am not seeing where Curse is interfering aside from having a content manager that makes sure minecraft news is posted in a centralized location.

    What is the concern with having Minecraft news, by minecraft players on a minecraft website? Is it that a few of those videos have been made by people who ended up becoming Curse associates? Right now everything I have done in the last 2.5 years on Minecraft could be viewed as being done by a Curse employee, but I created all of that before I started working for Curse.

    Have you considered making a suggestion to have a news submission area where people could submit articles, videos etc from around the community for the content manager to use for the News section? I would assume part of it is a concern that no one rights are infringed by using videos without permission. I only deal with CF not MCF but suggestions and feedback are always welcome.

    Not really sure if the News section of the Minecraft Forums is pertinent to a discussion about CurseForge's mod hosting ability though. How do you feel the 2 are related? One is a community managed forum run on Curse software, the other is a mod hosting service run by Curse. I thought Ino had said he was considering Curse for mod hosting, not forum management? Neither of which are a decision I have any part of as part of my job. Well except that if T.U.G uses CF I can follow my favorite mods and get emails when they update and install them without much effort. And I'll get to talk to even more mod developer type people which I love.
  • ValidifyedValidifyed REGISTERED Posts: 612 Seed
    jadedcat wrote:
    Validifyed wrote:
    jadedcat wrote:
    Curse doesn't run the communities, they provide forum hosting, forum software and technical support. With the Minecraft forums they pay a couple of the full time moderators. Not to tell them how to run the forums, just to make it easier for those people to devote time to the community.

    Allow me to introduce you all to what I call; "A big list of corporate trash that has quite obviously pushed community content into the background"; http://www.minecraftforum.net/

    Unfortunatly the old forum home page dosent exist anymore; http://www.minecraftforum.net/?page=1800 starts on the day of the curse takeover, I would have loved to show you guys the amazing community news that existed before then.

    Here, I found some good ol' "We only push our own content" examples for you all. Enjoy.

    http://www.minecraftforum.net/news/7708 ... yer-format
    http://www.minecraftforum.net/news/7804 ... ame-minetv

    Not sure how it is today (I suspect very little change having gone back and looked at some recent posts) but does anyone remeber when that "Pico" woman AKA Curse Employee, was in every other freaking news post?

    I admit I don't pay that much attention to news sites of any website. However those are both quite old posts (2 years), and I am not sure why having news about Mojang looking for input on a site devoted to Minecraft is a bad thing. I would understand if the MCF news was filled with videos about KSP or WoW etc, but Minecraft news on the Minecraft forums is Curse corporate information?

    In the last few months I see news posts about very well known community events and mod spotlights, a post about the recent snapshot update. Youtube videos from community members that are not part of the Curse youtube network, and other minecraft community content. Its compiled by the content manager but I am not seeing where Curse is interfering aside from having a content manager that makes sure minecraft news is posted in a centralized location.

    What is the concern with having Minecraft news, by minecraft players on a minecraft website? Is it that a few of those videos have been made by people who ended up becoming Curse associates? Right now everything I have done in the last 2.5 years on Minecraft could be viewed as being done by a Curse employee, but I created all of that before I started working for Curse.

    Have you considered making a suggestion to have a news submission area where people could submit articles, videos etc from around the community for the content manager to use for the News section? I would assume part of it is a concern that no one rights are infringed by using videos without permission. I only deal with CF not MCF but suggestions and feedback are always welcome.

    Not really sure if the News section of the Minecraft Forums is pertinent to a discussion about CurseForge's mod hosting ability though. How do you feel the 2 are related? One is a community managed forum run on Curse software, the other is a mod hosting service run by Curse. I thought Ino had said he was considering Curse for mod hosting, not forum management? Neither of which are a decision I have any part of as part of my job. Well except that if T.U.G uses CF I can follow my favorite mods and get emails when they update and install them without much effort. And I'll get to talk to even more mod developer type people which I love.

    Admittedly the examples I showed are made weaker by the fact that I can't show you the original pre Curse forums. But even in the 100 page history of the current forums you can see a clear decline in the open nature of the community as curse got its footing, after all, curse where pretty new back then and so the forums where more ran as they where previously, but over time, things like the spotlights of small youtubers became news videos by curse employees and features of videos made by youtubers with 1x10^(6 to 7) subscribers - y'know, because they are always interacting with the community and really need the extra coverage.
  • ValidifyedValidifyed REGISTERED Posts: 612 Seed
    jadedcat wrote:
    I only deal with CF not MCF but suggestions and feedback are always welcome.

    *Snip*

    Not really sure if the News section of the Minecraft Forums is pertinent to a discussion about CurseForge's mod hosting ability though. How do you feel the 2 are related? One is a community managed forum run on Curse software, the other is a mod hosting service run by Curse. I thought Ino had said he was considering Curse for mod hosting, not forum management? Neither of which are a decision I have any part of as part of my job. Well except that if T.U.G uses CF I can follow my favorite mods and get emails when they update and install them without much effort. And I'll get to talk to even more mod developer type people which I love.

    Well you can see my list of suggestions on the last page. Maybe you can comment more on them?

    As for the forum vs mod management, because of the nature of CF your looking at a dumbed down forum with the accounts and website structure. Hence why some of my suggestions referred to more forum based activity, because such things can and do happen on CF.

    One of the main points I am arguing is that there are alternatives to look at, In the event that TUG doesn't use CF, you will still be able to look at mods through (What looks like will be the nexus as the major alternative to CF) - the only difference if you likely wont be interacting with them as much as you dont work at Nexus (Which reffures back to your plainstated bias)
  • jadedcatjadedcat REGISTERED Posts: 5
    Validifyed wrote:

    Admittedly the examples I showed are made weaker by the fact that I can't show you the original pre Curse forums. But even in the 100 page history of the current forums you can see a clear decline in the open nature of the community as curse got its footing, after all, curse where pretty new back then and so the forums where more ran as they where previously, but over time, things like the spotlights of small youtubers became news videos by curse employees and features of videos made by youtubers with 1x10^(6 to 7) subscribers - y'know, because they are always interacting with the community and really need the extra coverage.

    Well obviously I am biased towards Curse currently. However I do have a lot of experience in severl gaming communites including ones Curse has no involvement in. Specifically I am fairly well known for my content in Sims 3 and my participation in the forums there. From my experience with TS3 and other games my theory is you are incorrectly assuming a correlation based on flawed logic. Saying the community feels like it has declined since Curse starting providing the forum hardware does not automatically mean Curse caused any perceived decline. As games get larger and the player pool gets wider more undesirable personality types invade forums. Sadly these people tend to feel the need to feel better than other people, and have a need to feel important. To fill those needs they are divisive and aggressive. This tends to drive away the more helpful and approachable members of a community.

    Its actually kind of interesting to watch. I have never seen a game community that got large that did not have sections with this dynamic. FTB reduces this dynamic by removing users who believe name-calling, bullying and threats are conducive to rational conversations of opposing viewpoints. For most communities though as it gets larger certain personalities will emerge. There is always a few people who find that their self-worth is defined by gathering a cult. They start by finding a common enemy and explaining to everyone that will listen how this "enemy" is evil, immoral, unethical, that they are ruining some aspect of the "classic" experience. While most logical individuals ignore this type rhetoric, mob mentality quickly takes over if the cult gains enough momentum.

    Once the common "enemy" is defined the group then sets out to ensure everyone knows how this "enemy" is ruining the community. Rational individuals ask "How?" and are responded to by "I have no proof but you can trust me" or "I don't know, but this many people can't be wrong". Those that prefer a logical reason ignore further discussion. Which than leaves the cult as the only one disseminating information. Younger members of the community get sucked in either by believing the fallacy that mob mentality can't be wrong, or driven by a need to belong to a group. This divides communities. Often the people that refuse to buy into mob mentality are forced off the official forums for a game and into off-shoot communities.

    I have yet to see a single game community not fall to this eventually. To attribute this to the company providing the software for the community to use is just as logical as attributing it to the leader of the country the game is made in. Two things being linked does not make every correlation directly related to that link.

    The only thing I can see on the News history page is a community manager ensuring people can find snapshot and change information and spotlights on mods in one place. Obviously he can't link every youtuber that makes a Minecraft video, so he's probably going to pick the most well-known. I have never had a problem interacting with the Minecraft community before or after I became well-known. Except for a small portion that believe that since I am well-known now that I have always been so and couldn't possibly have put effort into getting to know the community. To become well-known you have to spend time with the community. You can't just put content out and expect it will magically become known. That's just not logical.

    Validifyed wrote:

    Well you can see my list of suggestions on the last page. Maybe you can comment more on them?

    As for the forum vs mod management, because of the nature of CF your looking at a dumbed down forum with the accounts and website structure. Hence why some of my suggestions referred to more forum based activity, because such things can and do happen on CF.

    One of the main points I am arguing is that there are alternatives to look at, In the event that TUG doesn't use CF, you will still be able to look at mods through (What looks like will be the nexus as the major alternative to CF) - the only difference if you likely wont be interacting with them as much as you dont work at Nexus (Which reffures back to your plainstated bias)

    My boss will address your bullet points.

    For MCF to have relevance to a discussion of even a dumbed down forum it would need to be run by the same team. I have no connection to MCF, none of the CurseForge staff do. We are completely separate of even the few employees that do help out with MCF. Actually the FTB forums would be a good example of how I do forum management. And that forum is incredibly open and friendly as long as you can avoid name-calling bullying and threats. Even if some of the debates there give me migraines. (OMG people need to learn to use punctuation.)

    And I think I was very clear I am biased. I didn't hide it in the slightest. Which is why I am not saying T.U.G. should use CF, I am refuting illogical correlations. Just because a cat has four legs does not mean everything with four legs is a cat.
  • KaeltenKaelten REGISTERED Posts: 8 Podling
    Hello everyone! I'm the Kaelten referenced to by several of the previous posts so I thought I'd say hi. I also wanted to answer a few of Validifyed's questions with direct answers. I currently oversee CurseForge (it's one word Ino!) and the larger author platform and mod experience.

    I got my start with Curse in 2005 as a WoW add-on author. I co-founded WowAce.com (acquired by Curse in 2007) and the Ace Libraries (still a personal project). In 2006 I started full time with Curse and have worked on a wide range of products and in addition to my role on the Author Platform I'm the Director of IT now.

    I'm willing to answer any questions you guys have to the best of my ability. I won't lie to you guys and if I can't answer a question at this time I'll be up front about it.
    Validifyed wrote:
    Well you can see my list of suggestions on the last page. Maybe you can comment more on them?

    Sure I'd be glad to.
    Validifyed wrote:
    Here's what you need to make sure they wont do, indeed, refuse them permission to do;
    - Comment on Mods

    This is a setting per project. It's completed up to the owners of the project if they want comments or not.
    Validifyed wrote:
    - Write reviews or descriptions of mods

    The descriptions you see of mods is completely written by the authors. We have minimal standards to ensure it's intelligible english.
    Validifyed wrote:
    - Push premium member mods further forward or make them seem better

    Nearly every user who uploads a project to CurseForge get's premium for free. It's a minimal thank you we give back to the awesome content creators we work with.

    It's also worth noting there's no concept of a premium mod, and to my knowledge no mod author has ever paid for advertisement with us.
    Validifyed wrote:
    - Throttle download speeds deliberately to make a bigger premium incentive (Granted, Donors should get download priority, Im talking about capping DL speed when there is noone else downloading, that sort of thing.)

    This is actually a common feature of mod hosting sites, currently Curse does this as well as NexusMod. Both sites offer un-throttled bandwidth as a Premium feature.

    However! In the near future we're discontinuing this limitation completely. All users will have uncapped geographically distributed bandwidth. We're also removing ads in the Client for everyone.
    Validifyed wrote:
    - Post videos of any kind anywhere on the TUG section of their Mod website

    I'm getting the sense you take exception to video content? If we find a great video that showcases something cool, we may post it.
    Validifyed wrote:
    - Control Announcements, news or otherwise, these should be kept to update notes on their main page, not TUGs section - the community should have control of this, by mass, either developers post news or mods are pushed up by the community enough to post.

    We're never going to even dream of dictating the messaging of NK to it's user base, that'd be insane. Although I'm not sure if I'm understanding you clearly.
    Validifyed wrote:

    These are things in my experience that Curse always puts their foot into without justification.

    Other than that, It would be nice to speak to someone that earns money through Curse, as the system seems to be clouded by their dumb points system, no basic numbers or anything.

    I've been both an employee and a add-on author for the last 8 years. I've had several major WoW add ons and libraries I've worked on over the years. I've never gotten rent money off of it, although I know people who have, but I have gotten enough cash on it to enjoy a nice vacation or two.

    The Rewards Program as a whole has given out more than a million dollars since it's inception about 5 years ago.
    Validifyed wrote:

    In nexus, you either donate to a mod, or NMM itself, they are separate, there is no percentage taking. Curse has done their best to blur this line and I highly doubt that was done by accident of design. While looking through the mods, I saw only 1 mod with their own Donate button, allowing them to accept donations 100% (Only 1 presumably because its such a pain in the a** to setup a paypal account for business.) - So every other mod could only make money through Curses "We take first pick of the profits" system.

    Actually you're quite mistaken. As Jaded mentioned authors can setup donation links. Those links propagate through all the way to the Client. Curse never touches that money, and doesn't take a percentage at all.

    The Rewards Program was never intended to blur any lines. It is in fact a revenue share as it's directly funded from advertisements and premium revenues.

    Participation in the Rewards Program does not exclude you from posting a direct donation link, nor does it limit you from hosting anywhere else.
    Validifyed wrote:
    As for the forum vs mod management, because of the nature of CF your looking at a dumbed down forum with the accounts and website structure. Hence why some of my suggestions referred to more forum based activity, because such things can and do happen on CF.

    Forums have a lot of issues for mod management. My experience as a mod author was the main motivation for me to write the first version of CurseForge in 2008.

    I hope all that clears some things up for you Validifyed, let me know if there's any more clarification I can help with. :)
This discussion has been closed.