Skill vs Scaling

2

Comments

  • BandersnatchBandersnatch Posts: 101 Seed
    Well, for skill in crafting, I would say the following: say crafting works by opening a minigame, where you have to sharpen a stick, say. If you have never done this before, the seed will be unable to create a super-fine point, because the strokes would be wide and innacurate. As they do it more often, the minigame will become gradually easier.

    As for the other side of crafting, which is based on having a specific amount of background knowledge (like lvl 30 smithing for dwarven armour in skyrim): If a seed tries to use a crafting technique on a higher end material, without mastering it on lower tier materials, then the result would by so misformed that it would be just a waste of resources.

    That's a good idea, makes logical sense while also building off of established systems.
  • mosesoperandimosesoperandi Posts: 22 Developer
    I'm impressed, you managed to write a whole paragraph on something we no almost nothing about, and tell us only things that are easily guessed or we did already know.

    One of the skills we learn as academics is how to carefully talk around points where research conclusions are hazy, and I'll tell you, it translates extremely well to a project like this one where there are two somewhat unique factors about our design that create topical landmines:

    1) We're trying not to design ourselves into a corner because we want a far more permeable line between what the community wants to see and the ideas that we have internally. This means that there are plans, but there are also spaces in those plans.

    2) There is a strong design commitment to discoverability as a core feature of the TUG experience, and there are ways in which the lines between game design and lore are hazy at times. I really don't want to be responsible for accidentally disclosing lore content while discussing a game mechanic ;)

    This doesn't mean that you shouldn't ask questions, since you definitely should! In addition, other devs might be more easily able to deliver targeted responses to some of those questions that satisfy some of the more technical concerns about mechanics, without disclosing too much.
  • The ArcanianThe Arcanian Posts: 51 Seed
    All I see is science!

    "Any sufficiently advanced technology..." (you know the rest)
    I take your law and raise you a corollary:
    "Any sufficiently understood magic is indistinguishable from science."

    All I see is magic!
    Nerd? You say that like it's an insult.

    Please excuse any bad spelling...
  • GazelleGazelle Posts: 35 Golem
    ;D if we're pulling in quotes...

    Magic is just science we don't understand yet.

    I look forward to a "Magic of Science" report on this.
    xG2TON8.jpg
  • BandersnatchBandersnatch Posts: 101 Seed
    Gazelle wrote:
    Magic is just science we don't understand yet.
    But if we assume everything is understandable, then the universe degrades into infinitely smaller pieces.

    (First paragraph is a little bit of a mess and second paragraph makes more sense, so jump there if the first one confuses you.)

    Let's assume string theory's true for a second, we think we know what strings are and why they are like they are (twisted "curled dimensions"). But why do the dimensions exist, why does energy exist. It's impossible to come up with a finite answer to everything, there will always be the question of why is this as it is. There is no way to come up with a finite answer to anything without assuming that at the most basic form of anything we will ever be able to understand, that that basic form is that way just because it is.

    Let's put this another way because that last paragraph was really confusing. Ever had a little kid ask why something is the way it is and they ask that about each and every about your questions. You know how you eventually just have to give up and say "because that's how the way things are". If we assume the universe has a finite unit as a building block (which we do because the alternative is that there's an infinite set of smaller and smaller building blocks of the universe with more and more complex rule to how they work) then we eventually will hit the smallest and anything about why that is the way it is we'll just have to say "it is that way because it is". Even if the universe goes on with infinitely small building blocks when you ask why they exist in the first place you hit this issue again.

    The basic underlying problem with science is that in all science you make an assumption, that we, as human beings, are able to understand what we're trying to figure out. For example can you teach your dog calculus? Can a rat learn why it's brain works and figure out it's DNA? The brains of other animals aren't wired that way but we assume that human's are because the alternative is that we never try. Want an example of how human brains are limited? Try to imagine an object with 4 dimensions of space, if you can (and some people can) move it up to 11, we're relatively sure at least 11 dimensions of space exist. Starting to see how problems appear?

    Eventually will likely hit a point at which are brains aren't wired to understand it. That, I argue, is what magic is. Where human beings are physically incapable of understanding it.
    Magic isn't science we don't understand, it's science we can't understand.
  • mosesoperandimosesoperandi Posts: 22 Developer
    If we assume the universe has a finite unit as a building block...

    Which we do because we're building a video game!

    ...the universe of TUG that is ;)
  • BandersnatchBandersnatch Posts: 101 Seed
    If we assume the universe has a finite unit as a building block...

    Which we do because we're building a video game!

    ...the universe of TUG that is ;)

    And thus when the only good explanation for something is "that's the way the devs coded it", it's definitely magic!

    Yea the reductio ad absurdum of my argument coupled with videogames is kind of weird :lol:
  • PuttyPutty Posts: 24 Golem
    Have you guys ever looked at the N-Gram viewer for google books for God vs Science? It's pretty neat!

    Skills in games are always weird. I don't know if anyone ever answered my question about what games have skill systems you all enjoy?
  • Nuclear RussianNuclear Russian Posts: 424 Seed
    Skyrim had somewhat of an interesting system, but it required either too much money or grinding in the end. But what I did like about it was that you had to become a certain level before you could have perks, or that you could attempt any trick available from the beginning (alchemy, pickpocketing, enchanting, etc) but would not be good at it for some time.
    Knowledge is power, Guard it well - Blood Ravens battle cry

    "Re-evolution: Sound like a blast"
    "Me: It will be"
    13.jpg
  • BandersnatchBandersnatch Posts: 101 Seed
    Putty wrote:
    Skills in games are always weird. I don't know if anyone ever answered my question about what games have skill systems you all enjoy?

    Hmm I have to say I don't like the scaling systems in most games (I'm just going to write in terms of combat as most games only scale combat or use a completely different system for crafting). The problem I have with most of them is that the game scales with you or you always are in areas where your near the edge of what you can do. The few that don't do this are some of the elder scrolls games (and all of them if you use mods) where the world is completely open and all of the creatures have set difficulties instead of scaling.

    That's one of the most important things I think, scaling should feel like your scaling, not like your just fighting monsters that look nastier and nastier but take the same amount of skill, but rather that you encounter all the same monsters but you can take on more of them and the ones you could fight earlier become easier. I can't imagine that TUG wasn't already heading this route though.

    The other problem is that systems either feel really binary (skill tree gives abilities) or have no real big moments of "now I can do this and I couldn't before" (leveling gives stats). Again this is something that TUG looks like it should overcome just by basic integration (I couldn't lift this boulder before and now I can cause I tried to get stronger type thing).

    Just my opinions though. I have to agree with Nuclear Russian and say that the elder scrolls series usually come up with the best scaling systems. It might be worth looking into the way people have tweaked the scaling system with mods though.
  • naturemonnaturemon Posts: 28
    I've read a bit through the thread, and here's another interesting way the scaling system could take. I've even taken up the liberty of drawing a few mock gui instances I mean.

    Now, I think one of the posts (I cannot remember which) which explained how the bow would be pulled back X amount when you're less efficient in a bow was interesting.

    My ideas would be incorporating some sort of GUI when you're more efficient with a weapon or rather, specific things in general.

    Now, when you're young, you learn things far faster than you would if you were an adult, this should be kept true in TUG, it gives the player a chance to try out many weapons and decide to stick with one and get better than those who picked it up later. The scale cap seemed waaaaay too low for a game like TUG in my honest opinion when reading through those. I think there should be a cap, but it should effective cap out at around 10 "maxed" skills. So if you choose to, you can be a pro with a sword a bow and a shield, and then you could have some experience in a variety of other skills to make it effectively 10 skills worth of experience.

    Now when you reach a certain amount of experience in a skill there should be some sort of difference other than physical appearance, rather than things happening for you (like someone said there should be some sort of ai to help you guide your shot) that shouldn't happen, ever, imagine aiming near someone not intending to hit them and the ai compensates and kills them, that'd be downright awful. What I think would be great so you don't have to literally get better at the game to get anywhere rather than just your seed, it should aide you, but not make you any better when things happen for you.

    What I was thinking for bows, as an example, would be after you get X amount of experience a gui telling you how far back your bow is pulled would be cool, and that bar or meter would increase as your skill or gets higher. Here's an example: You first unlock this gui
    JustUnlockedGUI.png
    it'd obviously take quite a bit of time to unlock, but it's a indicator as to how far you can now shoot, it's your seed "understanding" their abilities. Then after some more time it'd slowly grow into this:
    MidLevelArchery.png
    (The blue would be the player pulling back the bow) and then eventually the max
    MaxArchery.png

    Now, this is the thing, the player can pull back the bow to max at any point in using it, wheather the bar goes to that point or not if they have the strength. But above that limit of the mastery bar, and the string breaks, this is just an indicator as to what the player can tell they can do.

    Now onto mages because I like this idea. A mage should have to study some ruins or something to make exploring really feel useful. Now the player can pick up books or read glyphs on ruin walls to learn to spells. these spells are in fact just arrow keys pressed in sequence, if the player messes up, they receive a penalty. (like damage to themselves, magic is dangerous bu powerful!)

    Now to go into detail. Lets say I've learned one spell, it's up up down left right. This would seem silly seeing someone walk around, so the mage would go into a "spell stance" by pressing a certain button (like maybe p or something) and it would allow them to use wsad or even just the arrow keys and when their spell is finished they click and the spell flies out. Now for mages, how do you get better? Well after using it your spell's power grows in size, you can learn more complex spells, and once you get to the same point as the archer when they go into spell stance the spells they've learned (starting from the easiest and as they mature the more difficult ones show up) show up on the side

    SpellMemory.png?t=1396636028

    This list as I mentioned would grow based on their skill using magic and how complicated the spell is to remember. Then once it reaches it's max there's still more to do. The more you use a specific spell the more it should start simplifying, turning fireball's up up down left right, into up up down left and then up up down and then eventually just up up.

    As for swords I think if the opponent is using a melee weapon as well, after a while their attacks should be "expected" by a red line and the direction the attack is coming from so the player may parry it, quite honestly I'm not sure there's too much melee can do besides damage, variety of attack and the ability to see where an attack is going to come from.

    So, what does everyone think? (The melee part I added in, but it definitely needs far more work than the others, but I didn't want to skip it.)
  • The ArcanianThe Arcanian Posts: 51 Seed
    I will admit, the use of the arrow keys for spell casting is very good, i never thought of that but it could work very well with immobile casting, the "casting stance" key could be ' since it is right there. although I'm not sure how well this system could work with TUG's item based magic.
    Nerd? You say that like it's an insult.

    Please excuse any bad spelling...
  • naturemonnaturemon Posts: 28
    Oh I agree completely, quite honestly I'm kind of disappointed they're deciding to go with items for it.

    It works in games like Path of Exile, but this doesn't really feel like a game that should incorporate that, and the idea of exploring for lost magic sounds really neat, and it's not like it's unfeasible, in fact i think it makes exploring far more worth it, it encourages it rather than it just being something you can do to understand the lore of the game. If anything I think wielding weapons other than a staff/wand for magic should make the magic not as powerful but other than that I really don't see how item magic works, especially with the inventory system and lack of hotkeys for many different spells. Although I think it'd be really cool to find "gems" or craft them with a staff to make a staff that either casts a certain skill, or makes certain skills stronger. (For example a fire gem could be crafted with a staff to make a fire staff that empowers any spell using fire)
  • PuttyPutty Posts: 24 Golem
    Have you all ever read about Final Fantasy 2's skill progression system?

    http://www.hardcoregaming101.net/finalf ... /ff2-2.htm

    What would you think about using portions of this?
  • naturemonnaturemon Posts: 28
    I honestly can't tell if you're serious or not lol. Only one reason though, because the link you posted is insulting the progression system rather than praising it.

    That system sounds great though, I've personally never played the game but it sounds awful with a game style in which certain things can be a gamble if you increase your skills or not.

    In a 3D world like this however lots of the stuff sounds fantastic since you control your character and it's not a game of chance.
  • The ArcanianThe Arcanian Posts: 51 Seed
    naturemon wrote:
    Oh I agree completely, quite honestly I'm kind of disappointed they're deciding to go with items for it.

    It works in games like Path of Exile, but this doesn't really feel like a game that should incorporate that, and the idea of exploring for lost magic sounds really neat, and it's not like it's unfeasible, in fact i think it makes exploring far more worth it, it encourages it rather than it just being something you can do to understand the lore of the game. If anything I think wielding weapons other than a staff/wand for magic should make the magic not as powerful but other than that I really don't see how item magic works, especially with the inventory system and lack of hotkeys for many different spells. Although I think it'd be really cool to find "gems" or craft them with a staff to make a staff that either casts a certain skill, or makes certain skills stronger. (For example a fire gem could be crafted with a staff to make a fire staff that empowers any spell using fire)

    I personally do not care for PoE's way of itemizing skills, they are relatively static and remind me more of a universal skill tree then what itemized magic could be. If you go with the gloves like in NK's art every component (or most) could have an impact on the spell(s) it could cast. I personally favor the idea of more then one similar spells being cast-able from one item. Say maybe four? All determined from how the glove(item) is made.
    Nerd? You say that like it's an insult.

    Please excuse any bad spelling...
  • naturemonnaturemon Posts: 28
    I personally do not care for PoE's way of itemizing skills, they are relatively static and remind me more of a universal skill tree then what itemized magic could be. If you go with the gloves like in NK's art every component (or most) could have an impact on the spell(s) it could cast. I personally favor the idea of more then one similar spells being cast-able from one item. Say maybe four? All determined from how the glove(item) is made.

    I like that idea, but the issue is this, first, how would one go about acquiring the materials, especially early on. If I want to be a swordsman, no big deal, I make a sword, if I want to be an archer, no big deal I make a bow, but if everything's done through crafting like that the materials seem like they'll be difficult to obtain for magic, or too easy to obtain and everyone will need magic to compete with those who have it. I would rather have the itemized skills of Path of Exile there because at least then I wouldn't be restricted to using said gloves if they actually have a nice spell.

    My whole issue with itemized spells is restriction. Everything about TUG is so unrestricted, you do what you want when you want, but being forced to use something rather than choosing to use something sounds so....un-TUG like.
  • The ArcanianThe Arcanian Posts: 51 Seed
    naturemon wrote:
    I like that idea, but the issue is this, first, how would one go about acquiring the materials, especially early on. If I want to be a swordsman, no big deal, I make a sword, if I want to be an archer, no big deal I make a bow, but if everything's done through crafting like that the materials seem like they'll be difficult to obtain for magic, or too easy to obtain and everyone will need magic to compete with those who have it. I would rather have the itemized skills of Path of Exile there because at least then I wouldn't be restricted to using said gloves if they actually have a nice spell.

    My whole issue with itemized spells is restriction. Everything about TUG is so unrestricted, you do what you want when you want, but being forced to use something rather than choosing to use something sounds so....un-TUG like.

    I'm not seeing your point, that or I completely disagree. If you want to be a swordsman, you make a sword. If you want to be an archer, you make a bow. If you want to be a mage, you make (insert casting item here). It does not have to be any harder or easier than the other items.

    TUG is not unrestricted it is open, a big phrase NK keeps using (or at least ino does) is "trade offs" you may be able to do what you want when you want this time, but because of the choices you made you might note be able to do so next time. Want to be a be a swordsman? Then put down that staff and use a sword dangit. Want to be an archer? Then drop the slingshot and pick up a bow. Want to be a mage? Use that (insert casting item here).

    Magic also has a lot more (potential) variety then anything else you could use for a weapon, so there needs to be some form of limitation to stop (insert casting item here) from allowing you to have a spell for every situation, without having quite a few casting item's at least.
    Nerd? You say that like it's an insult.

    Please excuse any bad spelling...
  • naturemonnaturemon Posts: 28
    I'm not seeing your point, that or I completely disagree. If you want to be a swordsman, you make a sword. If you want to be an archer, you make a bow. If you want to be a mage, you make (insert casting item here). It does not have to be any harder or easier than the other items.

    TUG is not unrestricted it is open, a big phrase NK keeps using (or at least ino does) is "trade offs" you may be able to do what you want when you want this time, but because of the choices you made you might note be able to do so next time. Want to be a be a swordsman? Then put down that staff and use a sword dangit. Want to be an archer? Then drop the slingshot and pick up a bow. Want to be a mage? Use that (insert casting item here).

    Magic also has a lot more (potential) variety then anything else you could use for a weapon, so there needs to be some form of limitation to stop (insert casting item here) from allowing you to have a spell for every situation, without having quite a few casting item's at least.

    I meant TUG is unrestricted as to what you can do, of course limitations exist further on, but at the start there are no issues.

    My whole issue is you can make said casting item, like a staff, now you're restricted to like 4 moves or something, something needs to change to switch up which spells you get, this is an extra step the archer and warrior don't have to deal with. There's also the fact that a limit of spells that can be learned can be implemented.

    The trade off with magic (with my idea) would be 1. You have to find said spells, you can't just make it, 2. You are literally completely defenseless until that spell is casted, you miss, well you're probably dead, in fact you'd probably get destroyed by mostly everything early on unless you don't miss, but the damage would make the trade offs worth it, also 3. If you had a spell for every situation, it's not like you'd be invincible, in fact I think you'd fall into one of the most classic of rivals of the mage, the archer. Unlike mages their "cast period" or rather firing speed is better than a mage, they can also move while fighting, you are at a complete disadvantage in every way.

    My point is, both ideas are fine, and can work out, however I think it'd fit TUG's theme more to do something far more unique with magic.

    Edit: Actually you know what, I think what would fit more would be a combo of our ideas, perhaps before you may enter this cast stance you have to have a spellbook? That would be the item you need to cast (you must be wielding it) and you would fill the spellbook with the spells you find.
  • PuttyPutty Posts: 24 Golem
    All of these systems are interesting but I wonder about maybe a grounding to build from.

    The analog for skill progression is learning, right? Your character, and you, are learning and that learning takes the form of numbers for the most part.

    There is a lot of stuff that goes along with learning. This is learning how to play the game as well as your character getting acclimated to their new environment.

    For the most part, the concept of progression in games is tied (at a meta level) to the pen and paper realm. That, in turn, is tied old war games. How can you tie the knowledge of a single soldier to the entire unit that soldier is a part of?

    Within a video game environment there is a whole new level to consider, how can you emulate what a person knows? How can you emulate what a player knows versus what an avatar knows?

    So, let's think about a skill progression. One of my favorite quotes is from Albert Einstein and I think this is what I see as a skill progression system:
    Common sense is merely the deposit of prejudice laid down in the human mind before the age of 18
    In this case, I see common sense as skills that everyone has and prejudices, in this case, as weaknesses resulting in strengths as direct correlates.

    TL;DR

    As you grow up, you set skills and various paths you'd like to go down. When your seed reaches a certain age of maturity, all other paths are lopped off (but can be regained through education, challenged through doing the opposite of your skills.

    So how do you gain skill points in your skill? Well, repeated action. Let's take Minecraft as an example. As I clear blocks, my ability to clear blocks goes up. Instead of a single block, you gain access to multiple block clears. Instead of clearing things at a single speed, you gain access to multiple speeds. Then, you gain access to a command line that lets you specify all sorts of things related to clearing terrain. However, while you can now clear like a mad man, you've lost the ability to build more technological items. In fact, you might not be able to even recognize them when you see them.

    There's all sorts of things you can do. There's all sorts of things we could try that haven't ever been considered.
  • JehanJehan Posts: 22 Seed
    Putty wrote:
    All of these systems are interesting but I wonder about maybe a grounding to build from.

    The analog for skill progression is learning, right? Your character, and you, are learning and that learning takes the form of numbers for the most part.

    There is a lot of stuff that goes along with learning. This is learning how to play the game as well as your character getting acclimated to their new environment.

    For the most part, the concept of progression in games is tied (at a meta level) to the pen and paper realm. That, in turn, is tied old war games. How can you tie the knowledge of a single soldier to the entire unit that soldier is a part of?

    Within a video game environment there is a whole new level to consider, how can you emulate what a person knows? How can you emulate what a player knows versus what an avatar knows?

    So, let's think about a skill progression. One of my favorite quotes is from Albert Einstein and I think this is what I see as a skill progression system:
    Common sense is merely the deposit of prejudice laid down in the human mind before the age of 18
    In this case, I see common sense as skills that everyone has and prejudices, in this case, as weaknesses resulting in strengths as direct correlates.

    TL;DR

    As you grow up, you set skills and various paths you'd like to go down. When your seed reaches a certain age of maturity, all other paths are lopped off (but can be regained through education, challenged through doing the opposite of your skills.

    So how do you gain skill points in your skill? Well, repeated action. Let's take Minecraft as an example. As I clear blocks, my ability to clear blocks goes up. Instead of a single block, you gain access to multiple block clears. Instead of clearing things at a single speed, you gain access to multiple speeds. Then, you gain access to a command line that lets you specify all sorts of things related to clearing terrain. However, while you can now clear like a mad man, you've lost the ability to build more technological items. In fact, you might not be able to even recognize them when you see them.

    There's all sorts of things you can do. There's all sorts of things we could try that haven't ever been considered.

    *Scratches Beard Inquisitively* Rethinking what I was about to post.
    If you could make it to almost an infinite amount of directions you could go and *learn your char*. Such as the block building branches into removing 3 blocks at once, or in another direction you could build blocks in a level path and in turn learn how to build L shaped patterns, zig zags, horseshoes, and what not. But building up with blocks would lead you into being able to build towers or such things. But the same as growing less knowledge of removal of blocks. Or spend a bit of time building in one straight ground level pattern as well as up at the same time gets you to building things that go more off the patterns you have built previously. So spending a lot of time allocating your skills in the right areas would make you someone people would want to have you on their team (assuming there was team play).
  • naturemonnaturemon Posts: 28
    Putty wrote:
    All of these systems are interesting but I wonder about maybe a grounding to build from.

    The analog for skill progression is learning, right? Your character, and you, are learning and that learning takes the form of numbers for the most part.

    There is a lot of stuff that goes along with learning. This is learning how to play the game as well as your character getting acclimated to their new environment.

    For the most part, the concept of progression in games is tied (at a meta level) to the pen and paper realm. That, in turn, is tied old war games. How can you tie the knowledge of a single soldier to the entire unit that soldier is a part of?

    Within a video game environment there is a whole new level to consider, how can you emulate what a person knows? How can you emulate what a player knows versus what an avatar knows?

    So, let's think about a skill progression. One of my favorite quotes is from Albert Einstein and I think this is what I see as a skill progression system:
    Common sense is merely the deposit of prejudice laid down in the human mind before the age of 18
    In this case, I see common sense as skills that everyone has and prejudices, in this case, as weaknesses resulting in strengths as direct correlates.

    TL;DR

    As you grow up, you set skills and various paths you'd like to go down. When your seed reaches a certain age of maturity, all other paths are lopped off (but can be regained through education, challenged through doing the opposite of your skills.

    So how do you gain skill points in your skill? Well, repeated action. Let's take Minecraft as an example. As I clear blocks, my ability to clear blocks goes up. Instead of a single block, you gain access to multiple block clears. Instead of clearing things at a single speed, you gain access to multiple speeds. Then, you gain access to a command line that lets you specify all sorts of things related to clearing terrain. However, while you can now clear like a mad man, you've lost the ability to build more technological items. In fact, you might not be able to even recognize them when you see them.

    There's all sorts of things you can do. There's all sorts of things we could try that haven't ever been considered.

    That's the way I was hoping the game would go, which is what I referred to when saying younger seeds should learn faster, I mean it's natural. You teach a person something when their brain is still developing, they learn faster. Just essentially things that happen when you learn in reality. This is just really hard to express for games, there needs to be a point where it's your seed that does the learning rather than you.
  • BandersnatchBandersnatch Posts: 101 Seed
    naturemon wrote:
    That's the way I was hoping the game would go, which is what I referred to when saying younger seeds should learn faster, I mean it's natural. You teach a person something when their brain is still developing, they learn faster. Just essentially things that happen when you learn in reality. This is just really hard to express for games, there needs to be a point where it's your seed that does the learning rather than you.

    I actually think the "learning faster" while young would be great in games except for one thing, it might lead to frustration in the game later. How much I don't know but think of how today's free-to-play games often make money. They let you do tasks really fast at the start, then later limit how fast you can do something. The hope of the developers there is that you'll get frustrated enough to pay to go faster because you had a taste of how it would be like that. As such, I'd worry that people would get frustrated if you emphasize this to much. (This effect is also present to a lesser extent in games where you have to grind to level up, at the start you level fast but later it take forever.)

    I do think that it would be a great addition to the game, but you'd have to be very careful how it was implemented to make sure it wasn't causing frustration.

    Something that could potentially overcome this is that when your seed is younger you learn new skills that you hadn't tried before faster but then they become as hard as if you're an adult seed. (A child might learn the basics of piano in a year but they vs 2 years but after that they might learn at the same pace as an adult.)

    I think this might make it staggered enough that it doesn't cause frustration, additionally, if seed's were to have a certain natural affinity towards certain skills that might help make it even less apparent. (People do actually have slight natural affinities to certain general areas like math, logical thinking, story telling, music, etc.)

    Overall though, I do think the idea of seeds learning faster when younger is a good one, it would just need to be implemented carefully.


    Edit: Putty, just re-read your post, how would the ideas you proposed translate into the game? Best way I can think of is that whenever you learn a skill it puts resistances to learning other skills and makes you slightly worse in the area if you already know how to do it. It would probably have to be either weaker at the start, or people would have to learn at the same rate throughout the game. Is that similar to the way you were thinking?
  • naturemonnaturemon Posts: 28
    Oh I didn't mean it'd make learning later extremely difficult, just a boost when you're young. It'd encourage people to really 'grow' their seed early on rather than later, it'd also be a great time to experiment as to exactly which route you want to go and fits your playstyle as there's not as much of a penalty when you have a boost to 'catch up' to the older seeds.
  • Nuclear RussianNuclear Russian Posts: 424 Seed
    For now,
    Tealdeer.gif

    But I should get around to reading all of it, there seem to be many interesting ideas in this thread.
    Knowledge is power, Guard it well - Blood Ravens battle cry

    "Re-evolution: Sound like a blast"
    "Me: It will be"
    13.jpg
  • Nuclear RussianNuclear Russian Posts: 424 Seed
    naturemon wrote:
    Oh I didn't mean it'd make learning later extremely difficult, just a boost when you're young. It'd encourage people to really 'grow' their seed early on rather than later, it'd also be a great time to experiment as to exactly which route you want to go and fits your playstyle as there's not as much of a penalty when you have a boost to 'catch up' to the older seeds.

    This might be rather beneficial for the game, since its an extended character creation, of sorts, for RP purposes. That way you can create your own skills and define traits through childhood actions, to later become a defined character, a bit like in Fallout 3. The thing with skill and scaling is, I don't think that variety has been mentioned. How many types of strikes could a swordsman learn, what is the maximum number of possible spells in TUG, etc?

    If the variety is too limited, then skill and scaling would lead to the mere development of skills like strength and dexterity, and not technique. If variety is too broad, then it might take a long time to implement, and the many moves may become too complex for many to remember. What would the middle ground be then?
    Knowledge is power, Guard it well - Blood Ravens battle cry

    "Re-evolution: Sound like a blast"
    "Me: It will be"
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  • naturemonnaturemon Posts: 28
    naturemon wrote:
    Oh I didn't mean it'd make learning later extremely difficult, just a boost when you're young. It'd encourage people to really 'grow' their seed early on rather than later, it'd also be a great time to experiment as to exactly which route you want to go and fits your playstyle as there's not as much of a penalty when you have a boost to 'catch up' to the older seeds.

    This might be rather beneficial for the game, since its an extended character creation, of sorts, for RP purposes. That way you can create your own skills and define traits through childhood actions, to later become a defined character, a bit like in Fallout 3. The thing with skill and scaling is, I don't think that variety has been mentioned. How many types of strikes could a swordsman learn, what is the maximum number of possible spells in TUG, etc?

    If the variety is too limited, then skill and scaling would lead to the mere development of skills like strength and dexterity, and not technique. If variety is too broad, then it might take a long time to implement, and the many moves may become too complex for many to remember. What would the middle ground be then?

    I think Chivalry has the right idea here. Except when you broaden your skills your attacks can vary from generic slashes to overhand attacks to stab attacks, parrying, etc. It's the only way I think melee could be preferred. Maybe when you get far enough in you can parry arrows (perhaps a chance of it happening automatically) who knows, melee could be a lot of fun if done right.
  • BandersnatchBandersnatch Posts: 101 Seed
    naturemon wrote:
    I think Chivalry has the right idea here. Except when you broaden your skills your attacks can vary from generic slashes to overhand attacks to stab attacks, parrying, etc. It's the only way I think melee could be preferred. Maybe when you get far enough in you can parry arrows (perhaps a chance of it happening automatically) who knows, melee could be a lot of fun if done right.

    This again brings up the question of control scheme, best thing I can think of (or we came up with earlier when talking about this) was using a joystick or holding a button which locks the camera, then doing a motion with the mouse. The second one might work actually, try holding control and moving the mouse in a direction for a small amount of time as a slash or start a circle for stab. But does anyone else have other ideas? Most games with complex combat use the RPG/MMO style of press a button to perform a preset move but I think we can agree nobody likes that and it would seem even worse in TUG as the game seeks an organic experience.
  • Re EvolutionRe Evolution Posts: 1,105 Seed
    My only problem with that suggestion wod be reaction time. Sure, the click to cut method is really old and boring, but it can have the player react to stimuli immediately. If we have to push a button and then do setting else to attack, that increases the time it takes to make a quick attack. And what if you're being circled while trying to attack? Will the attack follow the person, like a lock on mechanic?
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  • BandersnatchBandersnatch Posts: 101 Seed
    My only problem with that suggestion wod be reaction time. Sure, the click to cut method is really old and boring, but it can have the player react to stimuli immediately. If we have to push a button and then do setting else to attack, that increases the time it takes to make a quick attack. And what if you're being circled while trying to attack? Will the attack follow the person, like a lock on mechanic?


    Yea, it's actually faster than you'd think but it would have to be that the strike starts extremely quickly but then goes considerably slower once it hit's the middle of the swing, that would allow you to block, and be countered. I have no idea if it would be effective but i feel it might be worth a try.

    Assuming you want variety of strikes for melee range though, I think it's better than pressing one of 4 buttons for downward strike as opposed to side strike.
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