Skill vs Scaling

BandersnatchBandersnatch REGISTERED Posts: 101 Seed
edited August 2014 in Design
So I have a question here for the community, how much do we want skill vs scaling?

In other words, how hard do we want it to be for a brand new seed, just starting out with a bow, but the player is really good with the bow, vs a player who's bad with a bow, but who's seed has been using it for a long time?

Additionally, how do we want the scaling to work, do we want an increase in damage? Accuracy works well for a bow, just make it so that it randomly shoots the arrow at a slightly different angle than you intend it and decrease the maximum angle as the seed gets better, but how would you do something like this with a sword? How with magic?

I'm assuming that we want a level of skill to be involved and a level of scaling, but how much?

Should it even be possible for a brand new seed to kill a very strong seed?
How hard should it be? Would you need to concoct some brilliant plan of dropping rocks on them, or sneaking up on them?

Obviously at first making skill the priority seems the best idea, but then that lowers the satisfaction of progressing.

Hopefully the community can come upon an answer we all agree on.
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Comments

  • spacedotspacedot REGISTERED Posts: 416 Seed
    I think this will be one of the hardest decisions for the NK team. Scaling leads to grinding which leaves usually leaves new players far behind ones that have already started. Games like Eve which have a long grind are hard to get into because of that disadvantage. Also when you have systems like that it leads to account selling. Everyone knows you can buy Wow accounts at max level and its all done for you. Skill on the other hand makes it more of a learning curve game. But having a week old seed vs a year old seed and the younger one wins just by fluke would really suck for the person who put in so much more time, and long term members are what sustains games. Skill systems also bring in hacks for people who aren't that good. Look at Rust for example, new game with not much in the way of grinding skills but you get a weapon and a hack and you can take down anyone. Both have pros both have cons.
  • PuttyPutty REGISTERED, Vakaethei Posts: 24 Golem
    What sort of example would you offer forward with how you'd like to see either scaling or skill work?
  • Re EvolutionRe Evolution REGISTERED Posts: 1,105 Seed
    Possibly go with scaling, but have a different type with skill. I'm going to give an example, because that was as vague as I could possibly be. Say you go and murder a bearram out in the wild, and it gives you X amount of points (lets say, 10) towards your next increase. If you were not hit at all, you would get 10+(lets go with 5), because you were able to stay away from him long enough to kill him. You get bonus points for doing special things that require skill, so if you just run in and start swinging your giant sword at things, you would get less points than someone who is more tactical about their game style.
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  • ZekloZeklo REGISTERED Posts: 344 Seed
    Possibly go with scaling, but have a different type with skill. I'm going to give an example, because that was as vague as I could possibly be. Say you go and murder a bearram out in the wild, and it gives you X amount of points (lets say, 10) towards your next increase. If you were not hit at all, you would get 10+(lets go with 5), because you were able to stay away from him long enough to kill him. You get bonus points for doing special things that require skill, so if you just run in and start swinging your giant sword at things, you would get less points than someone who is more tactical about their game style.
    I care to disagree, how I see TUG is you play how you want. You wanna be a giant damage sponge and swing randomly so be it, it would advance you (grow or whatever) into more of a beefy kind of guy. It shouldn't be discouraged that only agile and nimble people get bonuses to someone who wants to play meat shield.
    "All things must come to an end." "I am but one of many." "Why? Why not!"
  • BandersnatchBandersnatch REGISTERED Posts: 101 Seed
    Possibly go with scaling, but have a different type with skill. I'm going to give an example, because that was as vague as I could possibly be. Say you go and murder a bearram out in the wild, and it gives you X amount of points (lets say, 10) towards your next increase. If you were not hit at all, you would get 10+(lets go with 5), because you were able to stay away from him long enough to kill him. You get bonus points for doing special things that require skill, so if you just run in and start swinging your giant sword at things, you would get less points than someone who is more tactical about their game style.


    That's a potentially good way for scaling but that doesn't deal with how it scales, I don't know about you but one of the things that appeals to me about TUG is that they're changing things up dramatically. I think one of these should be new ways things scale other than just it deals more damage. We always have strength to deal more damage but how do you represent increasing sword expertise in game? TUG isn't about combos so you can't have special combos that unlock, sword expertise does not mean more flat out damage, so what does it mean? Only thing I can think of is that the sword would move faster but that still seems somewhat lackluster...

    (Additionally I agree with Zeklo, even if you try to account for everything, the nature of a game with mods at part of it's core may screw it up, I modder shouldn't have to mess with a complex system of numbers simply to make their weapon or ability not slow down a players progression.)
  • Re EvolutionRe Evolution REGISTERED Posts: 1,105 Seed
    I had no clue where I was going with that, so sorry for that.
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  • BandersnatchBandersnatch REGISTERED Posts: 101 Seed
    It's fine, it's a valid proposition, making a new scaling system, but I think scaling vs skill and what type of scaling there is is a more pressing issue.
  • GazelleGazelle REGISTERED, Vakaethei Posts: 35 Golem
    Possibly go with scaling, but have a different type with skill. I'm going to give an example, because that was as vague as I could possibly be. Say you go and murder a bearram out in the wild, and it gives you X amount of points (lets say, 10) towards your next increase. If you were not hit at all, you would get 10+(lets go with 5), because you were able to stay away from him long enough to kill him. You get bonus points for doing special things that require skill, so if you just run in and start swinging your giant sword at things, you would get less points than someone who is more tactical about their game style.

    personal thoughts using the bearram example:

    You go out to kill a bearram in the wild using [BOW], every attack you land with [BOW] gives you [+X BOW SKILL] (I would assume this affects damage/accuracy/etc. with bows and scales the same regardless of character build/size) that caps at [Y BOW SKILL]. If you decide you want to be the archest of archers, having a capped [BOW SKILL] would be the most beneficial to your offensive play-style. However, this is just looking at offensive abilities in combat. Say, like Re Evolution mentioned, you manage not to get hit at all, and this bearram is pretty bearramly (!!!) you gain [+X DEXTERITY] (this is just an example. personally, I would like to see some character stats that break the mold of traditional D&D str/dex/wis/etc. but you know, for ease of use let's go with that.] if you continue to fight enemies in this way, you cap at [Y DEXTERITY] (I assume there would have to be some maximum number of character-stats you can attain here so people don't just become uber-seeds and wreck everything. So let's say you can get a maximum of 50 character-stat points and each one caps at 20 or something.) So your seed here is slowly becoming ultra-Legolas, but MAYBE THAT SOUNDS TERRIBLE TO YOU. SO...

    You go through the same scenario with [CLUB], smashing your face into bearrams until they die, and improving your [STAMINA]. Here, [strike]you become Conan the Barbarian[/strike] a different play style fosters a different set of skill growth, resulting in a different character balance.

    This is just my opinion on how to do this. I think something like this would allow modders to add in overlooked "skills" based on what they think should be implemented (ex: maybe you really want to make a...bearram-slayer class, so you make a mod that increases certain stats anytime a bearram is killed. or you get a +X% bonus when fighting bearrams after you've killed a certain number of them because you learn how they fight.)

    As far as the balance between baby-Seeds and veteran-Seeds, I think having a disadvantage makes sense. You are new, you don't have as much experience in the world, you need to hone your abilities and learn where you are and what you can do! This also makes me think back to WoW days when people would form "Anti-Ganking" parties to make sure some sort of stability remained in the lower-level zones. In my opinion, the real balancing part will come into play when caps on skills/scales start being hit.
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  • BandersnatchBandersnatch REGISTERED Posts: 101 Seed
    Well written post, but the questions still remain:

    How would you cause classic objects to scale in a unique way.?

    The recent post on stats shows this diagram:
    cnmJtt_R-gppBmqzLS4lfbRajzcycCJCy9jC-waQ99h10FNhjUK1QCfaVbQAjFWBAkWFUAC6JuEhPWOoFCF7j77efS3kzIaM1BXEKxl8uKYct4oCcg1I68_EJo9ofA
    and implies that scaling of strength or machete skill (at least I think that's a machete...) can open up new degrees of freedom. At first you can go up and down, then you gain new degrees of freedom.



    How much of a disadvantage?

    A disadvantage does make sense, but at what point does skill start to overtake scaling?

    In other words, at what point would a very skilled/smart player with a new seedling be able to beat a bad player with a strong seedling?
  • ZekloZeklo REGISTERED Posts: 344 Seed
    Hmmmmm.... here is an idea. So lets say you excel at strength, once you meet "cap" strength for a young seed you grow a little in that area. So if you meet your cap for strength you grow into a more strong guy. Also lets say you can have your stats add to a total of ummm 30 to decide your growth. So you could have 10 strength, 10 dexterity, and 10 wisdom or simply 30 strength to go all out strength or whatever. This way each stat number adds to what you become and if there are like 10 or so stats, that leaves a ton of possibilities. Example: 20 strength and 10 dexterity would let you swing 2 handed weapons faster or something. This is a very open idea, I just hope you understand.
    "All things must come to an end." "I am but one of many." "Why? Why not!"
  • TeknonickTeknonick REGISTERED Posts: 166 Seed
    I think having a disadvantage is good when you're brand new. In real life, would you expect some little punky eight year old to hurt to with a sword? I hope not. I'm pretty sure just about any adult would slab it out of their hands and then spank them before they're sent to the local police force for a little 'scare', and ETC other things happen.

    One of the main advantages about TUG is that griefing is going to be HARD. If you can jump into the game and INSTANTLY be able to kill a super-level Seed with pure skill (Or a hack), then... um... what? Yeah. You should have to 'level' in TUG's own sense before you can even match up to a stronger character. Obviously dumb players that have had tons of luck leveling might still die... but they should easily be able to take out a more-skillful player, yet younger seed.

    I like the example in the picture. When you first pick up that huge sword... I would love to see it barely lift and slice that log in half... eating up all your stamina for the day as a side effect. Next day, you can do it TWO TIMES! More and more... by the time you're a teen (Or so), you might be able to use that sword for real. But, before then, you probably used a sharpened stick or club before then as your actual form of fighting.

    I like to think of Young Seeds being kind of defenseless... relying on groups, or protection from adults. Single Player should be a very dangerous game as you have no help... just as Multi Player would be dangerous from possible enemies. Young Seeds should struggle, and should pretty much be a time about learning. Picking up this, eating that, playing on the trees... and growing. That's about it. Once you grow a little bigger is when you should worry about that bearram, but maybe with a little help. By then you'd probably be sitting on some branch and just dropping stones down onto it's head until it collapses. Now, when you're an adult, you might decide to help others or work with other people. By this point dying should be a very scary thing, and you would shove griefing out of the way....
    The mix between the Adventurer and the Trapper yields the Tracker. Living in humble homes to help those in need. Always looking for the right coin, yet never theft is in their eyes.
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  • BandersnatchBandersnatch REGISTERED Posts: 101 Seed
    Good points all of them,

    "Obviously dumb players that have had tons of luck leveling might still die... but they should easily be able to take out a more-skillful player, yet younger seed."

    Just going to point out though that there's always the opportunity to make an ambush where you drop a million rocks down a cliff.

    I guess the seed would still have to be strong enough to set it up though so yea...

    Good points all of them.

    So next question is, what is some of the scaling going to be like?

    How is sword skill going to scale in a way other than damage or reduced stamina consumption?
    Similarly for magic?
    Spears?
    etc...
  • TeknonickTeknonick REGISTERED Posts: 166 Seed
    How is it going to scale.... I think melee vs. ranged vs. magic is a very good set of play-styles. Specifically if they're all COMPLETELY different. (I would love to see a fourth... but what would that be? Curse our 3 dimensional world! I want 4! lol) Before I get into the scale, I just want to say I love the differences between the three. If you think about it, a lot of melee stuff will either be hack and slash with two swords spinning like a fan... or slow precise slices and parries at the right time. It will be pretty fast, and you have to be fast to block each attack or might end up dying. With a bow, you have a distance to keep the enemies at you, but it takes a lot longer to pull back the bow-string and aim just right. Magic is like ranged, but to the more extreme of things. You stand perfectly still (And 100% defenseless), while you wave your hands for three seconds to pull up a shield wall to block the arrows. Then, you take five seconds to move just right to get a fireball and blast it into your enemy's toes!

    Now, with scaling. I think melee, ranged, and magic training should be mostly separate (Aside from the obvious strength to carry something, ETC). Then, further separate that into different skills per type. For melee, there's swordsmanship, fencing, hammertime, flails, maces... all sorts of different weapons that need to be learned! Including whips... YEAH! For archers, you've got bows (I'll say crossbows too... but I kind of see those as a training weapon. You pretty much get one shot, unless you have some guards), slings, boomerangs, throwing-rocks, gun-type weaponry... and probably more. Now with magic, there's something special. Well, a little special. There'll probably be a lot of different play-styles for these too: Arcane, elemental, illusion, necromancery, conjuration... not to mention combinations of all of them.


    Now, let's get into a specific melee skill example. Swordsmanship seems to be a favorite, and requires the most thought out flesh-ness in my opinion. If you have a sword, and simply swing them around like a mad man, you're going to be using all of your stamina and probably pass out if you're not that strong. After awhile, your'll gain a lot of strength, but not really any type of skill.... If you take your time, and execute the perfect horizontal slice, your'll be mastering the skill in a completely different way. You won't be gaining as much (But still a bit) of strength, but your'll be faster and able to parry attacks more easily. Perhaps when you (As a Seed) perform this perfect horizontal slice enough, you (As a player) wont have to concentrate as hard to make the same type of slice. But, before you get to that point, your (As a player) perfect slicing skill might not execute very well with your Seed... leaving a kind of sloppy slice no matter how hard you try.

    Now, I think flails are a cool type of weapon, and almost the opposite play-style of swordsmanship in every way. Well, aside from going rambo and spinning them.... Your'll have to learn when to pull the weapon over your head towards the ground, and when to stop it at the right time to pull it to the side to get the spiky ball to go exactly where you want. As a very skillful player, you still wont be able to get what you want for awhile. But, once your Seed has gotten better, maybe you can let your little brother play around and it wont take much thinking for him. Flails will be almost impossible (With a few exceptions... hehehe) to parry, yet are a lot slower to hit with. But, they are unpredictable to the defendant and are almost not worth entering a battle with. The attacker (With the flail) will also have a hard time striking, and during one of those strikes would be left completely open no matter how good they are... as long as the defendant doesn't realise he can now become the attacker.

    Both of these skills are very different from each other, and take different paths along the railroad of training. Like you said about spears... that will be different too. Learn when to stab for a kill, or swipe to get them away from you. When do you throw it, and risk becoming unarmed? Are you proficient with that backup dagger you have if you miss? Now. Learning with either a sword of a flail should make your Seed (And possibly you) more knowledgeable about melee weapons generally, on top of more expertise in the weapon you decided to train with specifically. If you've trained all your life with a flail, and pick up a sword, you might be able to swing like crazy and kind of know what you're doing... maybe even precisely striking in with that horizontal strike (But not nearly as good as if you had trained with that weapon.)


    Now you switch to a bow. You pull the string back (Only 10% of what the bow can handle... but you're simply that little weakling that you are!) and aim it with shaky hands. You manage to line up the feathers of the bow with the tip just right, and manage to let go. Your front hand is still shaky, so it will probably be 80% or so accurate. Most of the time you were shooting that shot (As an expert player, not an expert Seed) you were focusing on aiming up the feather and tip, and forgot to aim at your target. WOW. FAIL! Not to mention the arrow landed two feet in front of you due to your strength. Now let's say you built up a little strength by cutting down some logs, and returned to training. You now pull the string back (With 60%, as you're afraid it's not supposed to go farther... but you are able to pull it all the way if you knew you could), and line up the feather with the tip. You manage to shoot at the tree you were aiming for, and see the arrow almost miss it. It probably took you several seconds (Up to ten seconds as this is your second try as a Seed... but probably more around eight or seven seconds since you know what you're doing as a player) to aim the shot, and most likely would have been killed by any attacker. After several days of training, you are now an expert as a player, and a Seed. Your strength is good as well, so you can pull the string back all the way and without fear of breaking it. When you pull the string back (100%! WOOT! You remember breaking it a few times before you got to this point...) the arrow lines itself up perfectly and instantly, so that's not even a problem now. When you shoot, somehow you moved your mouse so you would have missed the tree... but as an expert Seed, the character manages to overcome your player's mistake and makes the arrow hit the very edge of the tree. Woot! for AI within your own characters!!!

    Now you're some Flail Master, AND Bow Expert... and somewhere between the two your muscles fell off and you had to regrow them. This should have taken a good week (Or LOTS more if I had it my way) IG to do this. Not to mention your Seed is an adult, because as a Seed you would be using clubs and slings as your weapons... unless you happened to be using this little tiny toothpick bow here (Sorry that I stepped on it....) Losing your character at this point would probably make you cry, but the way TUG is set up I doubt that's going to happen very easily with your new found skills.


    Now magic is something I look forward too. I'm probably not going to be a mage, but I would love to have some little spells I know as a tracker. I imagine the first scroll you find as a child Seed, you won't even be able to read it. Let's say you bring it to your house and stare at it for a few IG hours each day. Eventually (As a player), some letters start to change and come readable in your designated language. After a few IG days (Maybe an IG week) you can actually read the whole scroll! (Keep in mind there might be multiple languages in TUG... and if you happen to have known that one language, you may have been able to decipher it yourself and skipped that part!) Maybe before you tried whispering (Typing it in-game) some words, and noticed sparks on your fingertips. But now that you know the words you have to say, and the movements you have to make... you can start to type them (I think things you say should be translated into a bubble over your head (Or Text to Speech) in real time! That way, you can make 'mistakes' when you read out spells!!!) and move your hands the right way. This will mostly be a pure skill for the player, with a few bumps for Seed skill along the road.

    Once you start typing out the scroll, you move your mouse to see how your hands move in accordance. No buttons = both hands. LMB = only left. RMB = only right. LMB + RMB = hold hands steady before a thrust forward! Or maybe something like this. So, you now have to type out the scroll WHILE you're moving the mouse. Wow. What a pain! Pretty cool actually, if you think about it. Imagine sitting still while a hoard of enemies are coming at you, screaming and yelling. Wow, lol. "WAIT! Where does Seed Skill come in!?" Yes! As we all know, 99% of TUG players will have 1-2 hands to play the game. As you play with magic a bit, in general your Seed should take over most of the work for you. So, say you misspell a word "From the sun, to the wisp, bring fuire to my tips!" (Wow, what a long spell... luckily they all aren't that long!) yeah, that one word fuire... I think it's fire. And the game knows it too. Your skill would auto-correct it for you. Now imagine typing this out. "Frm te sun to wsp brng fire tips" and the Seed fills in the blanks for you! Now you can concentrate on the hand movements more. Eventually you might be able to get away with "Ftsttwbftmt" which is the acronym for the whole spell. "But... I'm not good with the hand movements either....." You know, I just realised. Why were you quiet until I got to this magic part? "..." ... Right. Well, Seed Skill should take over that too! Maybe you just move the mouse left and right while you type out part of the spell... and BLAM! it's that easy for an expert wizard!

    Now, I want to make a point that I LOVE magic! Magic should be diverse and fluid. You should have those long spells with whole sentences that you can't get away with making a mistake, and those huge hand movements, and that super long time to cast it. And, you should have those few where you utter a single word and fire comes out. Maybe you just 'think' (IDK how) of the spell, then move your hands in a semi-circle and end with a push and an entire spell comes to life! Different types of spells should have different difficulties. The first few spells should be weak (Even master's will yawn when they use them!) and at the same time very hard to use. Once you go into that super-uber impossible dungeon and pull out some new scrolls, you should find some easy and hard spells... that are both just as powerful! Of course each type of magic (Arcane, Elemental, Illusion) should have their own way of being cast. Some no words and just dance, some only words and staring blankly at the wall, some both. I would love to find out my neighbor has another scroll for the same spell I have, and it turns out to have completely different words "Fire tips." and less movements of the hands!

    Something I would also like to say is just typing out "Fire tips." IG would be pretty bad if everyone simply knew those keywords and could make fire instantly. What about before you cast a spell you have to hit the magic key (M, for example), and then it opens up the 'chat' bar for you to start casting your spell. BUT, only Seeds that have actually seen the scrolls will be able to use those types of spells. If you've never seen a scroll, pushing M and typing something will do nothing. If you've seen LanguageA's scroll and studied that fire spell, you would be able to cast it by pushing M and typing it. But if you try casting LanguageB's spell, it wont work. Also, I think other Seeds should be able to teach you. If a Seed knowing nothing (But the Player knows all) tries... well, nothing should work. If a Seed that knows the spell's language (But the player is a derp), there should be a way to teach the player by speaking (Typing) or writing. Seeds should also spawn with a set of 'randomly known symbols' in their mind, so if the Player happens to say something out of the blue, or write something down... it will be that small 'chance' that they got something out of nothing!


    I think I covered everything. So, to sum it up: Melee skills should focus on the time it takes to swing, how precisely and easily it is to swing your weapon. Ranged should be focused on lining up the shot, keeping it steady, and aiming just the right height. Magic is a combination of typing out spells (After having read them) and moving the mouse for hand signs. All are completely different, yet all intertwine. Using a bow might get your your strength and precision for using a flail better, while casting spells will teach you to stay calm and use that flail even better than you could have learned with a bow.

    Comments? Thanks! I think I might have skipped some thoughts... ugh. It s0c*2 not being able to type as fast as you can think. xD
    The mix between the Adventurer and the Trapper yields the Tracker. Living in humble homes to help those in need. Always looking for the right coin, yet never theft is in their eyes.
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  • TeknonickTeknonick REGISTERED Posts: 166 Seed
    Oops. No one's ever going to read that wall. O.O
    The mix between the Adventurer and the Trapper yields the Tracker. Living in humble homes to help those in need. Always looking for the right coin, yet never theft is in their eyes.
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  • BandersnatchBandersnatch REGISTERED Posts: 101 Seed
    I really, really like your ideas!

    Especially your magic system. :D

    One thing that I really like about your system is the way that the maximum amount of spells you can know is not limited by level, but rather by what the player can remember.

    If someone got speech recognition working well you could replace the typed component with a spoken one so it's less awkward, then the spells would either have to be longer than or weaker than the ones in your system.

    Just some ideas I thought up.

    Only problem I see with your system is in the sword system. It would likely be hard to aim the sword itself unless you have it follow your mouse when its our (which would quickly become very awkward when mixed with the vision system) so that means your scaling system doesn't work so well for it unless you can think of a better way to control it (maybe WASD when you click as to the direction? Still seems like it would be kind of weird.)
  • TeknonickTeknonick REGISTERED Posts: 166 Seed
    Oh yes, I wouldn't want the number of spells to be limited by level. Seeds would learn 'languages' for different types of spells and different difficulties. Players themselves should be forced to either write an IG spellbook (Nothing more than words and handsignals I would suppose) or something IRL.

    And yes, I would love the speech thing. That would actually work more and more easily the better your Seed gets, because you wont have to be as accurate with your typing (Or speech for this matter) which would be REALY awesome!

    And yes, the sword system has a lot of flaws. I've always thought about this A LOT in games... and the way I've though of is always awesome, but never quiet works out. We obviously can't use two mice, as then we wouldn't be able to move.... But, it could (Semi-)work if you click the button (Or hold it) and swipe in the direction (Even by a very small fraction) you want the sword to swing. Obviously this is a 100% flawless system when you have Oculus Rift involved! And before that... we could always have the player track their target when engaged in combat. That could also be something else that improves is how well they are automatically tracked. There could always be button that you hold to disengage for a few seconds so you can look where you want to incase you think someones sneaking up behind you... or you want to switch targets. That would actually be cool for super-impossible monsters that disable tracking so melee players will be almost useless against them! xD


    Oh yes! And THANK YOU! I'm glad you like my ideas. I'm pretty sure most other people have thought the same way... but it's just so impossible to implement into a game that they don't bother mentioning it. I believe it's possible, and that's why I went into too much detail so as I can give the Developers a kind of idea of how they could make it work.

    I mean I would seriously bum out if swords were like MC... or Skyrim. Or if archery were pretty much just point-n-click. Or if Magery were point-n-click. :S
    The mix between the Adventurer and the Trapper yields the Tracker. Living in humble homes to help those in need. Always looking for the right coin, yet never theft is in their eyes.
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  • BandersnatchBandersnatch REGISTERED Posts: 101 Seed
    best sword i can think of would be using joystick for direction and mouse for camera, but again, requires extra hardware.
  • TeknonickTeknonick REGISTERED Posts: 166 Seed
    Yep. :S. Yeah, some of the flight simulator joysticks would work for the sword, as they have a 'hat' button on the top which could be used for movement.
    The mix between the Adventurer and the Trapper yields the Tracker. Living in humble homes to help those in need. Always looking for the right coin, yet never theft is in their eyes.
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  • ZekloZeklo REGISTERED Posts: 344 Seed
    Whatever the developers decide to do, I'm sure it'll be just great. They haven't failed my wants yet and I have a feeling they won't for a long while, if not forever.
    "All things must come to an end." "I am but one of many." "Why? Why not!"
  • mosesoperandimosesoperandi REGISTERED, Developers Posts: 22 Developer
    Just a few comments for you all.

    1) Don't forget about crafting. It's a fairly essential part of the conversation you've been having here that nobody has really mentioned.

    2) We definitely want to create a balance in terms of our systems (because that's just good design). What I mean is, an optimal outcome is a "minutes to learn, lifetime to master" type of experience so that the game will still be enjoyable to new players.

    3) Don't forget about modding! If you feel like the standard system we develop is too easy or hard, too simple or too complex, or whatever else the problem is, either get modding (if you've got the skillz) or get vocal about it since it's likely someone else with those skillz feels the same way. We're actually really looking forward to seeing all the different kinds of mods the community generates as we get established!
  • BandersnatchBandersnatch REGISTERED Posts: 101 Seed
    1. True, we haven't really talked about it, I was assuming it would essentially amount to a form of scaling that requires people to actively pursue it rather than passively, is there anything about it that would change what we've discussed so far?

    2. Yep (btw, what's your opinion on how tricky a new seed / stupid an old seed should have to be for the new seed to be able to overcome the old seed, or if you think think it should even be possible?)

    3. Yea that's one of the great things about this game! I actually really like the magic system just proposed by tecknoick so if parts aren't implemented into the regular system (which from what I've heard of the magic system so far, it sounds like it would be incompatible), then I think I might mod it in!
  • mosesoperandimosesoperandi REGISTERED, Developers Posts: 22 Developer
    1. While, there's been no definitive choice on this yet, and it's probably something we'll want to play with, but while crafted items will obviously scale, we haven't made a decision to limit access to more advanced crafted items. In other words, afaik we have no reason for things like a "level 70 broadsword of indeterminate power" (and as you probably know by now there needs to be a clear and consistent internal logic for all things in TUG). So basically, there's player skill, there's seed stats and abilities, and then there's the powers of stuff itself. Obviously we're also interested in a relationship between the effectiveness of tools and the stats that determine how well a seed can use those tools, so that is a component as well. All three of these pieces come together in balancing the play experience in the ways that this post is concerned with.

    2. It should definitely possible. The only answer to that in my opinion is testing. We throw something out there and see what happens. I do like the idea that seedlings would need to be extra crafty or teamy to overcome a well established more powerful seed, but we're going to have to try different things, see what works, and see what people like.

    3. Magic? What is this magic you speak of ;)
  • BandersnatchBandersnatch REGISTERED Posts: 101 Seed
    Magic? What is this magic you speak of ;)


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  • mosesoperandimosesoperandi REGISTERED, Developers Posts: 22 Developer
    All I see is science!

    "Any sufficiently advanced technology..." (you know the rest)
  • BandersnatchBandersnatch REGISTERED Posts: 101 Seed
    All I see is science!

    "Any sufficiently advanced technology..." (you know the rest)
    I swear I saw a conversation where a dev said that "magic" will be based off of crafting with the gem on the seeds hand and orbs...

    No idea where though...

    You win, for now.... 8-)
  • mosesoperandimosesoperandi REGISTERED, Developers Posts: 22 Developer
    Some may call it magic, others science. The important thing is what you do with it.
  • BandersnatchBandersnatch REGISTERED Posts: 101 Seed
    Some may call it magic, others science. The important thing is what you do with it.
    So humor us then, what types of things will we be able to do with it?
  • mosesoperandimosesoperandi REGISTERED, Developers Posts: 22 Developer
    Just think about it in terms of how we've been implementing mechanics so far. The aim is a system with internal consistency. First, there's no reason to think that abilities tied to the"gem" seeds have on their hands will be limited to combat. Second, as with crafting and all of our systems, we're going to start with some core functionalities and see how they work. We're also keeping an eye on the conversations everyone is having, because frankly you never know where the best design ideas might come from.
  • Nuclear RussianNuclear Russian REGISTERED Posts: 424 Seed
    Well, for skill in crafting, I would say the following: say crafting works by opening a minigame, where you have to sharpen a stick, say. If you have never done this before, the seed will be unable to create a super-fine point, because the strokes would be wide and innacurate. As they do it more often, the minigame will become gradually easier.

    As for the other side of crafting, which is based on having a specific amount of background knowledge (like lvl 30 smithing for dwarven armour in skyrim): If a seed tries to use a crafting technique on a higher end material, without mastering it on lower tier materials, then the result would by so misformed that it would be just a waste of resources.
    Knowledge is power, Guard it well - Blood Ravens battle cry

    "Re-evolution: Sound like a blast"
    "Me: It will be"
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  • BandersnatchBandersnatch REGISTERED Posts: 101 Seed
    Just think about it in terms of how we've been implementing mechanics so far. The aim is a system with internal consistency. First, there's no reason to think that abilities tied to the"gem" seeds have on their hands will be limited to combat. Second, as with crafting and all of our systems, we're going to start with some core functionalities and see how they work. We're also keeping an eye on the conversations everyone is having, because frankly you never know where the best design ideas might come from.

    I'm impressed, you managed to write a whole paragraph on something we no almost nothing about, and tell us only things that are easily guessed or we did already know.

    Thanks for giving your input on this topic though!!!!
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